Reflective Paint
- Thread starter galaxy1
- Start date
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BentMikey
Rider of Seolferwulf
- Location
- South London
You're compensating because you don't want to ride a bike without your hiviz. You're taking part in a perceived higher-risk behaviour, but only with use of safety gear. It's the safety gear that lets you feel that you can do something slightly more dangerous than you might otherwise. Risk compensation. I do it, you do it, we all do it.
Nope, I've not changed my view on hiviz. Previously I also said that hiviz increases your visibility, but it does so in such a way that it's basically pointless for improving your safety. We're all already far more visible than we need to be, given that we're all sensible cyclists on here with proper riding technique and good lights.
As for your post about SMIDSYs and people complaining that they were wearing hiviz, that just shows how the cyclists were to some degree relying on the hiviz helping, and it didn't. That shows how risk compensation can increase your chances of having an accident. You can't make the conclusion that the driver didn't look, because a lot of the time they do look and just go anyway.
Nope, I've not changed my view on hiviz. Previously I also said that hiviz increases your visibility, but it does so in such a way that it's basically pointless for improving your safety. We're all already far more visible than we need to be, given that we're all sensible cyclists on here with proper riding technique and good lights.
As for your post about SMIDSYs and people complaining that they were wearing hiviz, that just shows how the cyclists were to some degree relying on the hiviz helping, and it didn't. That shows how risk compensation can increase your chances of having an accident. You can't make the conclusion that the driver didn't look, because a lot of the time they do look and just go anyway.
Terminator
New Member
I don't rely on HI-VIZ* because im normally concentrating on what the car is doing and his road positioning which can tell me what he is going to do next.If I dont catch a motorists eye when cycling near at a junction then I assume they may not have seen me.(Not looking properly)
Pedestrians normally keep me on my toes anyway as HI-VIZ doesn't apply to them as they rely on engine sound and not vision half the time.
Oh and fitting two electronic horns has been magic and effective against wandering peds in fact more successful than I thought they would be.Also effective against idiot motorists as they have no clue they are being tooted by a bike.
*=I still wear HI-VIZ every day though.
Pedestrians normally keep me on my toes anyway as HI-VIZ doesn't apply to them as they rely on engine sound and not vision half the time.
Oh and fitting two electronic horns has been magic and effective against wandering peds in fact more successful than I thought they would be.Also effective against idiot motorists as they have no clue they are being tooted by a bike.
*=I still wear HI-VIZ every day though.
Terminator
New Member
BentMikey said:
Yes there are a few bias's for/against aren't there?
summerdays
Cycling in the sun
- Location
- Bristol
OK Mikey - what's you stance on kids wearing Hi-Viz?
For example when my kids walk from school to the swimming pool - they all wear Hi-Viz (and so do any teachers and adult helpers).
View attachment 382
Photo taken of them walking wearing their Hi-Viz in the bad weather.
A few children cycle to school (normally about 6 on an average winter day), and some of them occasionally wear Hi-Viz. I only get my 6 y.o. son wear it on really miserable days. (I also bought him a pale grey coloured coat rather than a black one as I'm sure light coloured clothing is more visible than dark). One kid wears a Hi-Viz coat to school walking each day. I have to admit I normally notice him, not his parents, when I'm cycling by.
What about kids learning to cycle on the road? Should they avoid Hi-Viz as they might think it keeps them safe (some do think that).
For example when my kids walk from school to the swimming pool - they all wear Hi-Viz (and so do any teachers and adult helpers).
View attachment 382
Photo taken of them walking wearing their Hi-Viz in the bad weather.
A few children cycle to school (normally about 6 on an average winter day), and some of them occasionally wear Hi-Viz. I only get my 6 y.o. son wear it on really miserable days. (I also bought him a pale grey coloured coat rather than a black one as I'm sure light coloured clothing is more visible than dark). One kid wears a Hi-Viz coat to school walking each day. I have to admit I normally notice him, not his parents, when I'm cycling by.
What about kids learning to cycle on the road? Should they avoid Hi-Viz as they might think it keeps them safe (some do think that).
BentMikey
Rider of Seolferwulf
- Location
- South London
Wearing hiviz whilst walking? I hope you make him wear a helmet for walking too!!! I don't make my boy wear either one when he's walking, or cycling for that matter.
summerdays
Cycling in the sun
- Location
- Bristol
No I only get my son to wear it when cycling in poor weather conditions (he only walks to school about 3 times a year). Its another kid that wears the HiViz coat to school walking - like I say I notice him and I imagine the motorists do as well. And in my photo I think the HiViz helps the kids to show up when they are walking.
(I ought to get him to wear helmet, and knee and elbow pads when walking, he has far more accidents than on the bike
).
(I ought to get him to wear helmet, and knee and elbow pads when walking, he has far more accidents than on the bike
).BentMikey
Rider of Seolferwulf
- Location
- South London
LOL, sorry summerdays, I did read your post properly, I was just being difficult.
If the conditions were as in your photo, I'd be cycling with lights on myself. If I or miniMikey were walking in them, I still wouldn't bother with Hiviz.
If the conditions were as in your photo, I'd be cycling with lights on myself. If I or miniMikey were walking in them, I still wouldn't bother with Hiviz.
Wolf04
New Member
- Location
- Wallsend on Tyne
BentMikey said:
A rational argument Mike but I disagree. I would accept risk compensation if for example we were discussing motorbikes and all day headlights, where the rider may assume he is more visible and therefore put themselves in situations they normally wouldn't but the majority of the comments on this thread would suggest that the wearing of Hi-Vis is risk neutral, cyclists wearing it as an aid to visibility rather than assuming it makes one visible. As for complaints that "the driver didn't see me and I was wearing Hi-vis", I have to agree that Hi-vis is no substitute for good cyclecraft. Having said that though all the evidence we are using is anecdotal at best so there is little proof whether Hi-Vis decreases any form of accicent or not, my point is that as long as we don't rely. on it, it may be of benifit in certain conditions.
Pete
tdr1nka
Taking the biscuit
- Location
- SE London, Bandit Country
I tend to think that even if I was dressed as a giant Banana, a smidsy would still be a smidsy. Some drivers are just not vigilant behind the wheel and accidents will still happen. It takes no extra time or effort to put on a lid and hi-viz and in certain circumstances they are effective.
I wouldn't take Ms tdr1nka on the tandem without either, it doesn't make me any less vigilant or cautious in my riding. All our Hi-Vis have the 3M reflectors and it is proven that at impacts around 30mph wearing a well fitting lid can seriously limit potential damage to the skull.
Maybe I'm just erring on the side of caution but I would never let my guard down just because I choose to wear these items.
T x
I wouldn't take Ms tdr1nka on the tandem without either, it doesn't make me any less vigilant or cautious in my riding. All our Hi-Vis have the 3M reflectors and it is proven that at impacts around 30mph wearing a well fitting lid can seriously limit potential damage to the skull.
Maybe I'm just erring on the side of caution but I would never let my guard down just because I choose to wear these items.
T x
Wolf04
New Member
- Location
- Wallsend on Tyne
No I'm not going there one safety discussion at a time I think!!!tdr1nka said:
Bear with me here. A thought experiment:
I wear a hi-viz jacket in the winter. What would happen if I took it off and didn't wear it. I'll try and be honest here.
For the first few days (maybe even the first couple of weeks) I might actually be concerned about not wearing my jacket at night. I might try cycling more conservatively, i.e. more submissively. As time progresses, however, I would get used to not wearing the hi-viz and I would probably forget what it was like to wear it. At this point I would expect that my cycling would return to normal, i.e. I would cycle the same way I did with the hi-viz on. This would be because I would no longer think about what I was or was not wearing as I would be getting on with the job of cycling and enjoying it.
I would suggest that the time I would be in greatest danger would be during the transition, where I would be riding more submissively. I probably would not take my road position as I should etc because I was worried about my visibility.
However, this effect would be temporary.
Going the other way it is possible for a short while that someone might feel safer for a couple of weeks because of wearing a jacket. But, similar to my example this effect would disappear once it became the norm.
In fact it could be the case that changing either way is just as dangerous, and it would be the change itself that would be dangerous and not the fact that you were moving to hi-viz that was the problem
So in conclusion changing may cause transitory reduction in safety, but in the long term no effect.
So if you conclude (as I do) that hi-viz improves your visibility under certain circumstances then I suggest that long term safety is improved at the expense of a short term reduction in safety. Of course if you are just starting cycling the transitory period would not matter as the major risks of learning a new skill would result in far greater risks (so long as you wore hi-viz at the start).
Discuss.....
I wear a hi-viz jacket in the winter. What would happen if I took it off and didn't wear it. I'll try and be honest here.
For the first few days (maybe even the first couple of weeks) I might actually be concerned about not wearing my jacket at night. I might try cycling more conservatively, i.e. more submissively. As time progresses, however, I would get used to not wearing the hi-viz and I would probably forget what it was like to wear it. At this point I would expect that my cycling would return to normal, i.e. I would cycle the same way I did with the hi-viz on. This would be because I would no longer think about what I was or was not wearing as I would be getting on with the job of cycling and enjoying it.
I would suggest that the time I would be in greatest danger would be during the transition, where I would be riding more submissively. I probably would not take my road position as I should etc because I was worried about my visibility.
However, this effect would be temporary.
Going the other way it is possible for a short while that someone might feel safer for a couple of weeks because of wearing a jacket. But, similar to my example this effect would disappear once it became the norm.
In fact it could be the case that changing either way is just as dangerous, and it would be the change itself that would be dangerous and not the fact that you were moving to hi-viz that was the problem
So in conclusion changing may cause transitory reduction in safety, but in the long term no effect.
So if you conclude (as I do) that hi-viz improves your visibility under certain circumstances then I suggest that long term safety is improved at the expense of a short term reduction in safety. Of course if you are just starting cycling the transitory period would not matter as the major risks of learning a new skill would result in far greater risks (so long as you wore hi-viz at the start).
Discuss.....
