Please teach me about Italian steel

[fossyant]

in terms of tubing, Columbus is the most widely used, @fossyant has covered this, although I am a bigger fan of TSX than he seems.

I would have got TSX - had the budget, but the frame builder advised against it as the forks and rear triangle were being chromed (it's too thin to chrome) - this was a race bike, so chroming stopped the forks/rear triangle getting scratched when transporting the bike in the boot, and protected it. Had I just gone for paint, then maybe. You don't see many now though.

 

[fossyant]

Italian frames are often dripping with chrome. This looks good and is practical on chainstays but:

- it had better be in good condition, as rechroming is ruinously expensive
- it can embrittle steels and is best avoided on the very thin tubesets like EL
- you need an old-fashioned steel enclosed-cam QR if you have horizontal chromed dropouts. Something newer, even 6500 Ultegra, will not hold as there are alloy so-called biting surfaces in the acorn nut and the lever, which slip on chrome.

If it's looked after, like mine, it's fantastic. 30 years old and no corrosion. You need to check the frame if buying chromed ones.

 

[fossyant]

Italian tubing, handbuilt in Stockport.

Went with UK rather than a Colnago (same price) as this was being fitted with the latest Shimano Dura Ace 8 speed. Can't be doing fully Italian frames with Japanese kit.


View: https://flic.kr/p/2mQguSv

 

[rogerzilla]

Eddy Merckx steel frames, the sort used by many big pro race teams from the late 80s to late 90s (7-Eleven/Motorola, Telekom, Lotto, etc), are Belgian but might as well be Italian. Chrome, fancy paint, Italian BB. They go like the wind, too. The Italian vibe is because Ugo de Rosa trained the first EM framebuilders.

 

[Hover Fly]

My memories from when steel racers were mainstream is that “Italian Stallions” as some owners insisted on calling theirs were regarded by most as a bit posey, all chrome and fancy paint but not as good as British underneath. Remember His Holiness Pope Cino Cinelli himself gave an interview to the Comic in which he said he would prefer to use Reynolds 531 to Columbus, but the import tariffs made it uneconomical, this was before Columbus bought Cinelli and the EEC abolished trade barriers across Europe. Eddy Merckx himself somehow got 531 tube sets to be built into his personal frames By De Rosa, just as later Miguel Indurain got some of his Pinarellos built in 653. The rifling in some Columbus tubing was widely regarded to be a marketing gimmick.

 

[wafter]

Thanks again all - looks like this thread is yielding some great information

130mm spacing came in with 8 speed, so there were a lot of steel frames out there from builders large and small. I have (just checked) 6 and only one of these is less that 25 years old

Thanks - although sadly I can't seem to find any! It seems that (according to Wikipedia) Dura Ace became 8sp in 1988, then got STIs in 1990 with, it seems everything else getting them by 1993 (which I think was when they reached 105). When do we reckon the mainstream builders went off steel? I've seen a few steel Raleighs with STIs from the mid-late 90s, however this was when they were well past their best it seems so nowt really worth having here.

I guess I have a window of maybe 1990-2000 (or a bit less) where I might find a decent steel bike with 8+ speed STIs.. can you recommend any decent British frame builders I might look out for?

Italian frames are often dripping with chrome. This looks good and is practical on chainstays but:

- it had better be in good condition, as rechroming is ruinously expensive
- it can embrittle steels and is best avoided on the very thin tubesets like EL
- you need an old-fashioned steel enclosed-cam QR if you have horizontal chromed dropouts. Something newer, even 6500 Ultegra, will not hold as there are alloy so-called biting surfaces in the acorn nut and the lever, which slip on chrome.

Thanks - must say I'm partial to a little bit of chrome and appreciate its wear properties in the right places; allthough have read about the hydrogen embrittlement you mention - probably a good case for it on the dropouts if not any of the tubing..

Thanks for the heads-up about the QR situation - didn't know that!

Italian tubing, handbuilt in Stockport.

Went with UK rather than a Colnago (same price) as this was being fitted with the latest Shimano Dura Ace 8 speed. Can't be doing fully Italian frames with Japanese kit.


View: https://flic.kr/p/2mQguSv

Very nice

I hear you on the Italian groupsets - as much as (on paper) I prefer Shimano, it does seem wrong on an Italian bike.

My memories from when steel racers were mainstream is that “Italian Stallions” as some owners insisted on calling theirs were regarded by most as a bit posey, all chrome and fancy paint but not as good as British underneath. Remember His Holiness Pope Cino Cinelli himself gave an interview to the Comic in which he said he would prefer to use Reynolds 531 to Columbus, but the import tariffs made it uneconomical, this was before Columbus bought Cinelli and the EEC abolished trade barriers across Europe. Eddy Merckx himself somehow got 531 tube sets to be built into his personal frames By De Rosa, just as later Miguel Indurain got some of his Pinarellos built in 653. The rifling in some Columbus tubing was widely regarded to be a marketing gimmick.

Thanks - I think you've hit the nail on the head - really I guess I'm asking if they live up to their reputation as I know from other interests in which I'm more learned I'll avoid some brands that others seem to blindly worship for their image..

It's interesting that you mention the "rifled" tubing (let's not forget Reynolds also did this with 708, although it didn't last very long) as I can't see how this can be any better than tube of the same mass with a slightly thicker wall. I wonder if it's perhaps more resistant to buckling somehow...?

 

[biggs682]

@wafter as others have stated there are quite a few Italian builders who built for anybody and these frames were often sold through the travelling sales person .

I have an unknown make Italian frame that sold by Ian May so it carries his name as to who made it no idea or clue.

If you want an Italian frame get in touch with Simoncini and they can make you one or sell you one that was made a few years ago

 

[Hover Fly]

I guess I have a window of maybe 1990-2000 (or a bit less) where I might find a decent steel bike with 8+ speed STIs.. can you recommend any decent British frame builders I might look out for?

Don’t under rate the later Raleighs, especially the 853s. They might not appeal to collectors like the early red and black SBDU team bikes but they’re still about the best bikes of their time, and have the advantage of not being suitable for l’eroica.
Otherwise, there was Mercian, and earlier in the 90s “regional” makers where you went into the shop like Harry Hall in Manchester: the various shops Donahue built for like Graham Weigh in Shotton, Ribble in Preston and others: Dave Lloyd on Merseyside, have a look at his concept 90: Woodrup were always well regarded, other builders were known in the Midlands, the south, Scotland and so on. By 2000 they were starting to die out as first titanium-they had to find a use for all those scrap fighter planes when the Cold War finished-Al alloy then carbon fibre started to spread.

 

[fossyant]

. The rifling in some Columbus tubing was widely regarded to be a marketing gimmick.

Don't tell that to Pinarello who use it on their Carbon bikes !

 

[Blue Hills]

Don't tell that to Pinarello who use it on their Carbon bikes !

can someone explain to ignorant me the theory/spin behind this rifling?
I assume it was internal and also not claimed to make you go faster than a bullet.

 

[fossyant]

can someone explain to ignorant me the theory/spin behind this rifling?
I assume it was internal and also not claimed to make you go faster than a bullet.

Just adds additional material in key stress points, without the full weight penalty of thicker tubes. Still double butted. It's definitely stiffer at the drive ! It was never claimed to make you go faster - SL was 25g lighter, SLX slightly stiffer at the BB. Whether you noticed was a question ?

531C wasn't a patch on SLX, I had both - miles more flexy on the 531c. Currently have 653 and SLX and they are pretty close with ride characteristics.

 

[woodbutchmaster]

can someone explain to ignorant me the theory/spin behind this rifling?
I assume it was internal and also not claimed to make you go faster than a bullet.

As l understand it having talked to Look here in France , it was explained to me that because frame tube steel had been made thinner , l guess in an attempt to save weight . It was felt necessary to strengthen points of stress with wire applied helically. All l can say is that the three Look bikes that l own constructed in this way, have not suffered as a consequence .

 

[wafter]

Don’t under rate the later Raleighs, especially the 853s. They might not appeal to collectors like the early red and black SBDU team bikes but they’re still about the best bikes of their time, and have the advantage of not being suitable for l’eroica.
Otherwise, there was Mercian, and earlier in the 90s “regional” makers where you went into the shop like Harry Hall in Manchester: the various shops Donahue built for like Graham Weigh in Shotton, Ribble in Preston and others: Dave Lloyd on Merseyside, have a look at his concept 90: Woodrup were always well regarded, other builders were known in the Midlands, the south, Scotland and so on. By 2000 they were starting to die out as first titanium-they had to find a use for all those scrap fighter planes when the Cold War finished-Al alloy then carbon fibre started to spread.

Thanks - I'd be very happy with a late frame of the right spec, but moving into the '90s it appears that the desirability of their (mainstream at least) frames started to tumble; I'm no afficiando of the company in their later years however during the '90s it seems that the mid-high end moved towards composite and ally, the low end keeping steel but non-descript gaspipe "4130 chromoly" or similar with unicrown forks etc.. the only off-the-shelf steel Raleighs I've seen with 8sp / STI groupsets have been lower end models such as the R100 and R200; along with a host of similar-but-a-bit-better models names after past glories (Clubman, Gran tour...) which got as good as Reynolds 520 for the frameset. While I'd happily entertain any of these as a shopper / utility bike I don't consider them particularly desirable in their own right.

Thanks for the suggestion of some of the smaller frame builders - I'll keep an eye out for those too

 

[cougie uk]

If it's looked after, like mine, it's fantastic. 30 years old and no corrosion. You need to check the frame if buying chromed ones.

My 653 Cougar corroded through on the chrome seat stay and had to be repaired. It was my dry weather bike too so I'm not sure what went wrong there ? Always avoided chrome since. It was a shame - maybe ,5 years old at most ?

 

[fossyant]

My 653 Cougar corroded through on the chrome seat stay and had to be repaired. It was my dry weather bike too so I'm not sure what went wrong there ? Always avoided chrome since. It was a shame - maybe ,5 years old at most ?

Did you treat the frame ? My 653 was an all weather bike and is fine inside, buy both that and the SLX were treated with a mix of waxoyl, spray lube and WD40 and swished about - they smell of waxoyl when you take the BB out. Possibly corroded inside out ?