Please teach me about Italian steel

[wafter]

Seems that Italian bikes are very well regarded; offering a whole layer or two of more obscure manufacturers that exist outside the awareness / budget of "most" riders - such as Pinarello, Gios, Cinelli, Colnago...

I see lots of nice-looking vintage steel bikes from these brands offered on ebay, for prices ranging from the modest hundreds well into the thousands. I can often appreciate why people are willing to pay such sums for these bikes as they're usually very pretty (lugwork, attention to detail etc) and I can fully appreciate the disire to own something like that just because it's so intrinsically nice.

I very nearly bought a Pinarello Montello from the 'bay recently as a basis for a retro-mod build, but held back as it had obviously been got at and I didn't feel knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision.

So.. broad strokes, what does one need to know about vintage Italian steel? I can see the similar appeal of Italian cars although always avoid them on reliability grounds; I guessing bikes are less of an issue in this regard..? I see tubing is usually Colombus or to a lesser extent Reynolds (so both should be all good). There seem to be a lot of fakes about / lesser steel frames refinished with misleading decals so I guess it pays to become familiar with what you might be buying to avoid getting stung.

Are there any mechanical issues specific to Italian stuff? I'm aware of the potential issues with the "both-RH-threaded" Italian BB standard; have Italian frame builders used these throughout or have some gone to ISO / English in latter years? How much of a problem are Italian BBs in the real world?

Thanks

 

[fossyant]

I went for an english hand built bike with finest Columbus SLX. That tends to be the best race frameset from 80's 90's. You won't see many TSX frames as it was very thin walled and didn't last. SL is slightly lighter. The X refers to stiffening spirals in the tubes around the bottom bracket and fork crown, so was stiffer.

 

[Chris S]

Are there any mechanical issues specific to Italian stuff? I aware of the potential issues with the "both-RH-threaded" Italian BB standard;

That's so you don't loosen both cups when you pedal backwards

 

[Smokin Joe]

Seems that Italian bikes are very well regarded; offering a whole layer or two of more obscure manufacturers that exist outside the awareness / budget of "most" riders - such as Pinarello, Gios, Cinelli, Colnago...

How much of a problem are Italian BBs in the real world?

Thanks

None in my experience. Just make sure you tighten them enough.

 

[wafter]

Cheers guys

 

[BalkanExpress]

Like many others, I love an Italian bike.

The only generalisation is that you cannot generalise. The largest producers knocked out hundreds of thousands of low budget bikes but also some of the most sought after collectors pieces. At the other end of the spectrum there were a vast number of local producers turning out exquisitely made bikes, that second hand are great value as they are not a fashionable brand. And in between, builders who would produce for different companies whose bikes sell across a broad price range.

Top models from top brands can go for silly money and consequentially there are lots of dodgy fake Colnago’s out there. On the other hand Italian bikes are a lot more reliable than Italian cars.. None of the threading is a big problem, there is no shortage of Italian threaded components

in terms of tubing, Columbus is the most widely used, @fossyant has covered this, although I am a bigger fan of TSX than he seems. Late 80s early 90s Columbus produced a vast range of tubes with different shapes and or butting, many oversized, for example, Max, Genius, Nemo and Neuron. Some build up into very light frames for steel. Dedacciai tubing appeared in the late 1980s(I think) and was used extensively by Pinarello among others. Moser bikes used Mannesmann Oria tubing a lot. A long paragraph to say it can take a lot of knowledge to work out what tube X or Y means, but you will never go wrong with Columbus SLX.

In short, There’s no reason not to go Italian and lots of good reasons to do so, but, like purchasing any bike a bit of prior research is a very good thing.

 

[FrankCrank]

That's so you don't loosen both cups when you pedal backwards

Is this still true with modern cartridges? With the older cup & ball BB's, I can see how procession comes in to play, but for cartridge BB's I'm not seeing it. Just thinking out loud really.

 

[Cycleops]

I think @woodbutchmaster is a fan. He may have something to add.

 

[woodbutchmaster]

I think @woodbutchmaster is a fan. He may have something to add.

The only "back peddling " l am aware of refers to recanting one's opinion or argument
I agree with Balkan Express regarding "X"rated Columbus tubing Just as an example my LooK KG253 has oversized Nemo tubing built in the late 1990's and for its age it is really light and stiff .....bit like me , come too think of it

 

[Chris S]

That's so you don't loosen both cups when you pedal backwards

Is this still true with modern cartridges? With the older cup & ball BB's, I can see how procession comes in to play, but for cartridge BB's I'm not seeing it. Just thinking out loud really.

Sorry - it was just an outdated WWII joke

 

[bonzobanana]

I seem to remember there was a test done a few years ago I think by a German engineer where frames of different materials were tested to destruction and they concluded that steel was the weakest frame material. It was an utterly ridiculous test because all the frames were very lightweight and of course steel is not competitive in weight so what they used was a Columbus tubed steel bike with exceptionally thin tubes and of course it was well below the strength of similar weight CF, titanium and aluminium frames. It was eye opening how weak the columbus tubes were in that particular frame. Then add in time and the thin parts of butted tube having some corrosion you could end up with very weak frame and forks indeed. Definitely a choice for lighter, less powerful riders I would say perhaps an elderly cyclist who appreciates vintage bikes. As a heavy rider they aren't on my radar at all.

In reality of course steel is by far the strongest material for bikes, its exceptionally abuse-able and resists fatigue very well. You have bikes like the Buffalo bikes in Africa and the Flying Pigeon bikes in China that last decades of abuse and are working bikes but those bikes have the so called gas pipe tubes etc. Any surface corrosion doesn't really effect unbutted thick gas pipe tubes, it creates a barrier to more corrosion and takes decades to really kill such a frame. Even gas pipe bikes pulled out of rivers have been restored back to working bikes.

I've got a Viscount/Lambert road bike that uses chromolly unbutted tubing. It doesn't use conventional Reynolds or Columbus tubing instead it used advanced chromoly tubing from the aerospace industry typically used in planes or so they claimed and delivered a lightweight frame that was competitive with the best Reynolds and Columbus tubing without butting. I think they were sold up until the 80s as a budget high performance road bike that matched the high end bikes. They got favourable reviews and sold well for a while in many countries.

I think a beautifully made steel frame is a work of art and testament to the amazing skills humans can develop but whether its actually a good bike compared to modern lightweight CF road bikes is more debatable. Are Italian steel frames the best? Many people seem to think so but many people seem to say Italian sports cars are the best and they are plagued with poor reliability, poor fit and finish and often catch fire with regards to Ferraris. I feel some of the Japanese steel frames were and are the most exquisitely made. The brazing on this frame is amazing. After the Japanese frame builders I'd probably put the English next but then that is probably my own bias but I feel like many of the best frames I've seen were Reynolds tube based frames from English frame builders.

 

[wafter]

Thanks again all

Like many others, I love an Italian bike.

The only generalisation is that you cannot generalise. The largest producers knocked out hundreds of thousands of low budget bikes but also some of the most sought after collectors pieces. At the other end of the spectrum there were a vast number of local producers turning out exquisitely made bikes, that second hand are great value as they are not a fashionable brand. And in between, builders who would produce for different companies whose bikes sell across a broad price range.

Top models from top brands can go for silly money and consequentially there are lots of dodgy fake Colnago’s out there. On the other hand Italian bikes are a lot more reliable than Italian cars.. None of the threading is a big problem, there is no shortage of Italian threaded components

in terms of tubing, Columbus is the most widely used, @fossyant has covered this, although I am a bigger fan of TSX than he seems. Late 80s early 90s Columbus produced a vast range of tubes with different shapes and or butting, many oversized, for example, Max, Genius, Nemo and Neuron. Some build up into very light frames for steel. Dedacciai tubing appeared in the late 1980s(I think) and was used extensively by Pinarello among others. Moser bikes used Mannesmann Oria tubing a lot. A long paragraph to say it can take a lot of knowledge to work out what tube X or Y means, but you will never go wrong with Columbus SLX.

In short, There’s no reason not to go Italian and lots of good reasons to do so, but, like purchasing any bike a bit of prior research is a very good thing.

Cheers - tbh I'm absolutely not averse to going with a small frame builder (regardless of nationality) - and would be very happy to take the potential cost benefits this would entail. Of course there are certain practical issues to be considered if taking this route - namely the difficulty in doing research, as well as finding these more obscure brands on the various sales sites.

I guess this route could also bring benefits in terms of compatability as ideally I want a traditionally-styled lugged steel frame with a modern groupset; the problem being that as the current 130mm rear axle standard (as req. for an 11sp cassette) was introduced in the later '90s, so came ally frames so it seems the only steel frames "widely" available to take 8sp + axles are those from smaller manufacturers who continued to cater for steel (either because of the boutique demand or because they didn't want to switch to ally!) after it had fallen out of favour by the bigger mainstream producers.

The Mick Grey frame I recently acquired appears to be one of these - apparently made in the late 1990s when mainstream steel was on its way out. On paper I'm very happy to use this as the basis of a project; however in practice the seized seatpost and stem, as well as the greater-than-ideal reach might put paid to that plan!

Thanks for your thoughts on the tubing - tbh I'm not an enormous tart in this regard and anything in the vicinity of Reynolds 531 / Columbus SL would be fine. I hear Tange is also good but we don't see a lot of it over here it seems. I'm intrigued by the format of the TSX (and Reynolds' similar 708) - although struggle to see how internal longitudinal ribs can give a higher stiffness-to-weight ratio than just increasing the wall thickness to give the same tube mass; as the I value should remain higher with this approach...

The only "back peddling " l am aware of refers to recanting one's opinion or argument
I agree with Balkan Express regarding "X"rated Columbus tubing Just as an example my LooK KG253 has oversized Nemo tubing built in the late 1990's and for its age it is really light and stiff .....bit like me , come too think of it

Thanks - the KG253 looks very nice; although it seems there aren't very many of them about!

I seem to remember there was a test done a few years ago I think by a German engineer where frames of different materials were tested to destruction and they concluded that steel was the weakest frame material. It was an utterly ridiculous test because all the frames were very lightweight and of course steel is not competitive in weight so what they used was a Columbus tubed steel bike with exceptionally thin tubes and of course it was well below the strength of similar weight CF, titanium and aluminium frames. It was eye opening how weak the columbus tubes were in that particular frame. Then add in time and the thin parts of butted tube having some corrosion you could end up with very weak frame and forks indeed. Definitely a choice for lighter, less powerful riders I would say perhaps an elderly cyclist who appreciates vintage bikes. As a heavy rider they aren't on my radar at all.

In reality of course steel is by far the strongest material for bikes, its exceptionally abuse-able and resists fatigue very well. You have bikes like the Buffalo bikes in Africa and the Flying Pigeon bikes in China that last decades of abuse and are working bikes but those bikes have the so called gas pipe tubes etc. Any surface corrosion doesn't really effect unbutted thick gas pipe tubes, it creates a barrier to more corrosion and takes decades to really kill such a frame. Even gas pipe bikes pulled out of rivers have been restored back to working bikes.

I've got a Viscount/Lambert road bike that uses chromolly unbutted tubing. It doesn't use conventional Reynolds or Columbus tubing instead it used advanced chromoly tubing from the aerospace industry typically used in planes or so they claimed and delivered a lightweight frame that was competitive with the best Reynolds and Columbus tubing without butting. I think they were sold up until the 80s as a budget high performance road bike that matched the high end bikes. They got favourable reviews and sold well for a while in many countries.

I think a beautifully made steel frame is a work of art and testament to the amazing skills humans can develop but whether its actually a good bike compared to modern lightweight CF road bikes is more debatable. Are Italian steel frames the best? Many people seem to think so but many people seem to say Italian sports cars are the best and they are plagued with poor reliability, poor fit and finish and often catch fire with regards to Ferraris. I feel some of the Japanese steel frames were and are the most exquisitely made. The brazing on this frame is amazing. After the Japanese frame builders I'd probably put the English next but then that is probably my own bias but I feel like many of the best frames I've seen were Reynolds tube based frames from English frame builders.

View attachment 621617

View attachment 621615

Thanks - it's funny that you've gone off on the "steel v. CFRP" tangeant as that's largely what's driving my desire for steel.. I can't fault the riding characteristics of the bike, however struggle to square my paranoia / desire for future-proofing with CFRP's unforgiving failure characteristics, the raft of (oft-covered-up) steerer tube failures being reported and the general attitude that they have a limited lifespan.

You make an interesting point about steel corrosion too; something I'd considered but chosen to put to the back of my mind / allay my fears of through inspection (as far as is practicable at least).

I guess there's always an argument for longevity versus performance, and tbh I'm happy to err towards the more conservative end of this scale if it keeps the anxiety at bay. End of the day a few hundred extra grams for peace of mind is a small price to pay in my opinion.

Thanks for posting those Yashijuro pics - funnily enough I was only looking at these recently, although they don't appear to have a UK distributor and I can find nothing on pricing. I love the lacquered steel look, however think the naming on the top tube spoils it somewhat and am not really a huge fan of fillet brazing - preferring lugs for appearance / strength or TIG welding for the latter.

I've also considered Japanese stuff as I have a lot of respect for their manufacturing skills and worth ethic, however there don't appear to be a lot of Japanese bikes over here and what there is seems to be single-speed stuff...

 

[BalkanExpress]

130mm spacing came in with 8 speed, so there were a lot of steel frames out there from builders large and small. I have (just checked) 6 and only one of these is less that 25 years old

interestingly @woodbutchmaster ‘s kg253 is Italian built by Billato who also built bikes for Concorde and Lemond, among many others.

 

[woodbutchmaster]

130mm spacing came in with 8 speed, so there were a lot of steel frames out there from builders large and small. I have (just checked) 6 and only one of these is less that 25 years old

interestingly @woodbutchmaster ‘s kg253 is Italian built by Billato who also built bikes for Concorde and Lemond, among many others.

I am not contradicting you, l interested that you say Billato built the Look KG253 ....apropos of which l send you this link
http://labibleduvelocatalogueslook.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_16.html

 

[rogerzilla]

Italian frames are often dripping with chrome. This looks good and is practical on chainstays but:

- it had better be in good condition, as rechroming is ruinously expensive
- it can embrittle steels and is best avoided on the very thin tubesets like EL
- you need an old-fashioned steel enclosed-cam QR if you have horizontal chromed dropouts. Something newer, even 6500 Ultegra, will not hold as there are alloy so-called biting surfaces in the acorn nut and the lever, which slip on chrome.