Please follow @cyclehatred on twitter.

[glasgowcyclist]

Isn't there some small room in a distant corner of the internet where the car haters and the cycle haters can curse each other ad infinitum and leave the ordinary road users to get on with life?

One is as bad as the other and any attempt, however well-intentioned, to set them straight only gives the appearance of a bigger problem than truly exists.

Let them rant at each other but don't feed them and don't disseminate their drivel around the web. Starve them!

GC

 

[Dan B]

Isn't there some small room in a distant corner of the internet where the car haters and the cycle haters can curse each other ad infinitum and leave the ordinary road users to get on with life?

One is as bad as the other

If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters, or bus haters vs HGV haters, or FWD haters vs RWD haters, I'd agree. But when there's such an obvious imbalance of speed/size/power between one camp and the other, it's very difficult to say that a 80kg cyclist and the pilot of a 2 tonne car are "as bad as each other", just as it is to say that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor and, say, Starbucks, are as bad as each other

 

[Davidc]

That sounds awful. I'm truly sorry to hear it.

I do not know other cyclists who encounter more than one or two discourteous or unskilled road users on most rides.

When the weather allows it, I do regular 70-mile runs with one or more of our children.

I simply wouldn't ride on the roads with children if I found other road users as unfriendly, unskilled and discourteous as you do.

I probably wouldn't ride myself, either.... No.... I would. What else comes close to a perfect ride on perfect tarmac in excellent weather?

I have to agree with you. There are a small number of drivers who aren't courteous, but it's a small proportion of the total and manageable. If it were more than that riding would become difficult, and it isn't.

 

[lukesdad]

If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters, or bus haters vs HGV haters, or FWD haters vs RWD haters, I'd agree. But when there's such an obvious imbalance of speed/size/power between one camp and the other, it's very difficult to say that a 80kg cyclist and the pilot of a 2 tonne car are "as bad as each other", just as it is to say that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor and, say, Starbucks, are as bad as each other

This is what you are up against glasgowcyclist.

 

[Hitchington]

To be honest I wouldn't waste my time reading the views of people who hate cyclists let alone engage with them. Life's too short and in my experience you'll never change the views of anyone with that much hatred. Most of them are probably trolls anyway.

 

[Recycle]

If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters,

I drive one of the much despised Vauxhall Astra's. In defence I bought it 2nd hand, & not because I liked it but because it had low mileage & good provenance.

that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor

Now you are just getting personal.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

If we were talking about Ford haters vs Vauxhall haters, or bus haters vs HGV haters, or FWD haters vs RWD haters, I'd agree. But when there's such an obvious imbalance of speed/size/power between one camp and the other, it's very difficult to say that a 80kg cyclist and the pilot of a 2 tonne car are "as bad as each other", just as it is to say that your local tax-minimising 'disguiesd employee' IT contractor and, say, Starbucks, are as bad as each other

You're adding a context of your own making to my words and, in the process, misrepresenting what I wrote and completely missing my point.


GC

 

[Glow worm]

I do not know other cyclists who encounter more than one or two discourteous or unskilled road users on most rides.

Trouble is, it only takes one to kill you.

 

[Dan B]

You're adding a context of your own making to my words and, in the process, misrepresenting what I wrote and completely missing my point.

The context I had in mind is that there are people on twitter (whom one may assume are car drivers) threatening - perhaps unrealistically or trollishly, but ... - to run cyclists over. The same threats made by cyclists against car drivers would be ... probably a good deal less threatening.

If that's not the context you had in mind then I apologise for missing your point, but there was no intention to misrepresent you

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I have to agree with you. There are a small number of drivers who aren't courteous, but it's a small proportion of the total and manageable. If it were more than that riding would become difficult, and it isn't.

I'd argue we only think it is a small number because as hardened road riding types only the most egregious examples of discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness even register, such is the thickness of the hide we must develop if we wish to continue riding on the roads.

And I'd argue it is precisely because non-cyclists see the widespread discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness, especially if they drive when they are victims of it themselves, on the roads that they refuse to get on their bikes and join us and regard us as slightly mad.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

The context I had in mind is that there are people on twitter (whom one may assume are car drivers) threatening - perhaps unrealistically or trollishly, but ... - to run cyclists over. The same threats made by cyclists against car drivers would be ... probably a good deal less threatening.

If that's not the context you had in mind then I apologise for missing your point, but there was no intention to misrepresent you

Well, as I wrote in my post, I was referring to was the cursing and ranting by the two groups. I am tired of the incessant whining of one entrenched group towards another.

It's primary school playground stuff:

"You do bad things."​

"Yeahbut you do worse things".​

They are as bad (or as good) as each other at polarising debate, producing little in the way of benefit.

Meanwhile, hundreds of drivers and cyclists just get on with it.

GC

PS Perhaps misrepresent was too strong, I should have said misinterpreted.

 

[CopperCyclist]

I think this may have been raised before but what is the legal status of something like this in relation to hate crime?
"In crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group" Wikipedia.

Perhaps cycling organisations like the CTC should test the law. There have after all been examples of prosecution for libellous statements on social media, and recently a number of people were prosecuted for revealing the name of a rape victim on twitter.

No joy on the hate crime angle I'm afraid. The law is written to currently only officially recognise five types of hate crime: race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, and gender. Anything outside this, while still 'taken into account', doesn't count as aggravated.

Basically if you attack someone because they are gay/foreign/Muslim/female/disabled, the judge can and probably will add some extra time to you sentence. Beat them up because they are ginger/are cyclists/are fat then you've still committed the assault but the judge can't add anything more for an aggravating factor, and it isn't recorded as a hate crime.

 

[Davidc]

I'd argue we only think it is a small number because as hardened road riding types only the most egregious examples of discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness even register, such is the thickness of the hide we must develop if we wish to continue riding on the roads.

And I'd argue it is precisely because non-cyclists see the widespread discourtesy, lack of skill, and thoughtlessness, especially if they drive when they are victims of it themselves, on the roads that they refuse to get on their bikes and join us and regard us as slightly mad.

We could only really resolve this difference of view by carrying out careful and well designed research, which neither you, I, or Boris Bajic who I was agreeing with are likely to do! It's not going to be productive having a pantomime style argument about it.

Where we would, I suspect, agree is over the need to deal in some way with those drivers who do meet your description, whether they're in the majority as you think or minority as I think, they're a dangerous menace not just to cyclists but to all road users.

I've never been convinced as to whether the answer is education or heavy enforcement. Probably a bit of both. A move away from the Car Is King culture would be a good start. The ability of the car haters, bike haters, bus haters and the rest to voice their opinions publicly on the web (where this thread started) at least gives the rest of us an insight into the thinking of some of the worst nutters out there.

 

[Recycle]

Trouble is, it only takes one to kill you.

Indeed.
Herbert Heinrich was a 1930's industrial safety specialist who observed that for every serious casualty (KSI) there were about 30 injuries of a less serious nature. Likewise, for every injury, there was 30 incidents. The only difference between the incident and the fatality is chance. This is called Heinrich's triangle (or pyramid) and it forms the foundation for industrial safety theory.

Heinrich's ratio of 30 has since been disputed. It's in fact a variable and depends on the type of industry and risk but the principle of his theory holds true. It's a numbers game. If you can't manage the incidences you won't stop the fatalities.

 

[bicyclos]

I think what is needed is getting together all these vindictive twitterers together in one big room for a good group hug