Petition for presumed liability

[andyoxon]

Signed. Nearly at 3500.

 

[Andy in Germany]

I think a lot of people don't realise that presumed liability, as well as being the law in every European country except the UK and Romania, for some reason, doesn't just apply to car drivers: the principle is "The person who has the more dangerous/powerful vehicle is presumed to be liable". In other words the law automatically supports the weaker person involved.

Another things that seems not to be obvious is that it applies to cyclists as much as drivers: If I am cycling and hit a pedestrian in Germany, I'm automatically liable unless I can prove they were doing something silly. In the case of a child, that's near impossible, because I have to assume a child will be unpredictable and ride accordingly: "(s)he ran out in front of me officer" will be met with: "You should have expected that and slowed down" and quite right too.

 

[Andy in Germany]

A new one this, someone has to prove there innocence. Disgusting idea... unless it's me they hit!

Actually, they would have to prove the other is at fault and it's a motoring/insurance assumption, not a criminal assumption. In the case mentioned earlier above the question would be "What was the cyclist doing at the time?"
Answer: "He was riding about like a loon with his hands off the handlebars."
"Okay, case closed, he was being an idiot"
Same if the answer was "he was drunk"; then the motorist isn't liable, unless the motorist was drunk too...

 

[Andy in Germany]

Not sure about black box but one of the Scandinavian countries 99%plus of cars have dashcams. Can't argue with that. Keep hearing police around here asking for dashcam film of accidents.

A black box would quite possibly be illegal here, and certainly dashcams are tricky because legally in Germany you can't store personal data, including numberplates and even a photo of someone's face, without permission: effectively I have copyright over my own face. This is why we have very few CCTV cameras in public places in Germany. Even Google Streetview is limited to a few cities.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Forgot to mention our own experience with Presumed Liability when our six year old was hit by a car in a "shared space" street is here.

Said 6 year old is now a strapping great 18 year old lump who rides his MTB down cliffs...

 

[HobbesOnTour]

I'm fairly sure that Ireland doesn't have presumed liability either and shares a common law legal system with the UK, albeit with a written constitution.
I do know that in Ireland when car A hits car B from behind that car A is "presumed" responsible for the accident and would need pretty compelling evidence to prove otherwise.
(It's actually a common scam where a banger with 5 people rolls back into a car and hey presto 5 insurance claims for whiplash! Dash cams are very common as a result).

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

I'm fairly sure that Ireland doesn't have presumed liability either and shares a common law legal system with the UK, albeit with a written constitution.
I do know that in Ireland when car A hits car B from behind that car A is "presumed" responsible for the accident and would need pretty compelling evidence to prove otherwise.
(It's actually a common scam where a banger with 5 people rolls back into a car and hey presto 5 insurance claims for whiplash! Dash cams are very common as a result).

Ireland and NI both waiting

 

[tyred]

I'm fairly sure that Ireland doesn't have presumed liability either and shares a common law legal system with the UK, albeit with a written constitution.
I do know that in Ireland when car A hits car B from behind that car A is "presumed" responsible for the accident and would need pretty compelling evidence to prove otherwise.
(It's actually a common scam where a banger with 5 people rolls back into a car and hey presto 5 insurance claims for whiplash! Dash cams are very common as a result).

It is because of those type of claims that my car insurance is so ridiculously expensive. Over 20 years driving experience, no convictions, never made an insurance claim, an 1100cc car and my insurance is over €800 because I'm high risk because my car is over 10 years old and old cars are used for that type of insurance fraud and is considered high risk so I have to pay through the nose

 

[HobbesOnTour]

It is because of those type of claims that my car insurance is so ridiculously expensive. Over 20 years driving experience, no convictions, never made an insurance claim, an 1100cc car and my insurance is over €800 because I'm high risk because my car is over 10 years old and old cars are used for that type of insurance fraud and is considered high risk so I have to pay through the nose

I remember 3rd party insurance on my first car was exactly half the cost of the (second hand) car! And most insurance companies wouldn't touch me because I worked in a hotel.

Having been out of Ireland for more than 20 years, the car insurance situation is (just) one that I can't believe hasn't resulted in revolution!

I used it as an example because I think it may refute the claim that common law is not compatible with presumed liability.

 

[matticus]

I used it as an example because I think it may refute the claim that common law is not compatible with presumed liability.

Is it actually encoded with Irish law anywhere? It's not in UK law, but does seem to be such a strong precedent that for practical (legal) purposes, it is Presumed Liability.

(and not Presumed Guilt, as some readers insist on mis-representing this! )

 

[PK99]

Is it actually encoded with Irish law anywhere? It's not in UK law, but does seem to be such a strong precedent that for practical (legal) purposes, it is Presumed Liability.

)

It is nothing to do with presumed liability as being discussed.

Hitting someone from behind is prima facie evidence of failure to follow the rules of the Highway Code

Highway code:

Introduction
....
Although failure to comply with the other rules of The Highway Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see The road user and the law) to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’.

Rule 126.Stopping Distances. Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear. You should  leave enough space between you and the vehicle in front so that you can pull up safely if it suddenly slows down or stops. The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance (see Typical Stopping Distances diagram, shown below)

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Is it actually encoded with Irish law anywhere?

Sorry, I have no idea. I'm not a legal expert, just someone who enjoys riding a bike 😊

 

[matticus]

just what this thread needs - another bloody layman.

 

[Drago]

I'm fairly sure that Ireland doesn't have presumed liability either and shares a common law legal system with the UK, albeit with a written constitution.
I do know that in Ireland when car A hits car B from behind that car A is "presumed" responsible for the accident and would need pretty compelling evidence to prove otherwise.

That presumption is a standard by which their insurers operate, as do they here. It is not a law or regulation, but their own sop based upon driving laws and conventions.

Pretty compelling circumstances can arise. Early in her driving career Mini D #1 rear ended someone. Fortunately, the other party did not have a licence that was valid in the UK so he was not entitled to be on the road at all, and his insurers ended up paying for my Daughters repairs, but not their own customer's damage. I gave her a damn good telling off after that, because the odds of getting "lucky" like that twice are very, very slim.

 

[kingrollo]

all new vehicles should be fitted with black boxes and front and rear cameras. If you are in an accident and they aren't working you are liable. If you are in an accident and they are working there should be enough evidence to prove liability. No need for massive law changes for this.

Wouldn't that need a law change in itself ?