Petition for presumed liability

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chriswoody

Legendary Member
Location
Northern Germany
I'm not sure how you're quantifying any of this Stevie. Following its introduction in Denmark in 1986 there was no reduction in casualties attributable to the new legislation. Ditto Holland when they introduced it in 1990. No evidence there that it's making anyone more aware of anyone else, or if it is then that is not translating to a tangible benefit.

I can't speak directly for @steveindenmark, but I do agree wholeheartedly with him. It is impossible to quantify, but if you've spent the amount of time that I have, cycling in a country that has presumed liability, then you will see that on the whole, driver attitudes are completely different. Drivers here do go out of their way to avoid you and I've been amazed at the lengths drivers go to to give cyclist and pedestrians priority.

Another point that folks here are forgetting is that it also goes the other way, so in the examples above where a young cyclist is riding along paying more attention to their phone than their surroundings, then they are presumed liable when they invariably hit a pedestrian. I really believe in it's efficacy as a road safety measure and is a big part of why cycling here is so much more safer and pleasurable than Britain.
 

keithmac

Guru
Duly noted. On the point of presumed liability however isn't just for the benefit of cyclists. It would be for the benefit of users such as cyclists. But you could argue pedestrians would benefit most as they are approximately 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously hurt by a motorist.

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, I had to stop in the middle of the road whilst test riding a motorcycle earlier in the year because some numpty stepped straight into the road while staring into their smart-phone. Not even a glance to the side.

Luckily there wasn't anyone behind or it wouldn't have ended as well. Even with the horn and a few choice words they still didn't really understand what could have happend.

Why would I have been liable for that, surely there become a point where you take responsibility for your own well-being and actions?
 
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HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
I'm not sure how you're quantifying any of this Stevie. Following its introduction in Denmark in 1986 there was no reduction in casualties attributable to the new legislation. Ditto Holland when they introduced it in 1990. No evidence there that it's making anyone more aware of anyone else, or if it is then that is not translating to a tangible benefit.



Where's the "benefit" Dave if it isn't making them any safer? There might be a nice cash benefit, so times for people that don't deserve it, but the argument being advanced is one of road safety, and there is little evidence that anyone is benefitting from that as a result.

I'm all for anything than genuinely benefits safety, but only where there is reasonably clear cut and reproduceable evidence that it does indeed contribute to safety.
The idea is driving a change of attitudes towards other users. In this thread alone some of that is on display in my opinion. You certainly can't wrap all road users in air bags and crash bars, Its certainly not perfect and i agree with some of your sentiments, but Chris Boardman has a little piece on it basically echoing this https://road.cc/content/news/chris-boardman-calls-presumed-liability-law-273759
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
The point regarding that is that you adapted and stopped and nobody was hurt. But if someone stepped out and you could have reacted because you were distracted but didn't and mowed them down and killed them, who you still think you were'nt liable?
 

keithmac

Guru
The point regarding that is that you adapted and stopped and nobody was hurt. But if someone stepped out and you could have reacted because you were distracted but didn't and mowed them down and killed them, who you still think you were'nt liable?

Not really, if I'd have done another check to the left at the junction (which I was perfectly entitled to do) it would have likely been a different outcome..
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
Not really, if I'd have done another check to the left at the junction (which I was perfectly entitled to do) it would have likely been a different outcome..
Yes, you are also entitled to make sure its safe to go ahead.

I pretty much rest my case here...
 

boydj

Legendary Member
Location
Paisley
Having been taken out by cars a couple of times through no fault of my own, I'm all in favour of presumed liability.

In the first place, it will much simplify claims against a driver and given that it's been shown the drivers are responsible in the vast majority of car v cycle incidents, it will reflect what actually goes on in our roads.

It will lead to a much faster settlement of claims for most incidents.

It probably won't lead to bigger losses for the insurance companies, since they'll be spending a lot less on lawyers fighting cases. The lawyers will be the losers.

It will not stop drivers from fighting a claim where they can show the cyclist has been negligent.

Given that Malta is the only other European country which does not have presumed liability, I have to wonder why we are out of step with the rest of Europe where the roads seem to be less hostile to cyclists than they are in Britain.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Guilty until proved innocent?
Mixed feelings on this.
End of March 2005 I was t-boned by a car pulling out onto the "major" road. But because I was only on a bike, I was at fault.

I'd always assumed that vehicles entering a "major" road, had to check there was nothing on the road before pulling out.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Parliament could change the manner in which liability is attributed in civil law, not only the burden of proof conventuon, but the evidential, moral and legal principles, but that would then impinge on pretty much every and all aspects of disputes in civil law and would cause incalculable legal disarray.
Or they could enact a minimal implementation which simply changes the initial presumption only in road collision damages claims, couldn't they? Or maybe allows the vehicle type to be considered a factor in itself?

How did we end up with it starting from a 50-50 presumption in road collisions anyway? It's bonkers that the mass and typical speed of each vehicle seems to be ignored.
There are so many things that can and do contribute to cycling safety it seems daft to expend any thought or effort on something that is not only highly unlikely to improve casualty figures, but is never going to happen. A petition regarding infrastructure or traffic enforcement is far more likely to contribute to safety and far more likely to actually one day materialise, so why waste our time fiddling while Rome burns?
I bet that was what the cyclists campaigning for tarmac roads 130ish years ago were told, with minor changes.
 
Location
España
While it may be a difficult concept to measure and my experience is purely anecdotal and specific to me, the presumed liability in the Netherlands had a huge impact on my driving when I moved there.

I was driving for a decade there before I threw my leg over a bike and got to experience it from other side.

For me, it's a no brainer for improving bike safety and the perception of bike safety.

I understand fully the abhorrance at the thought of being responsible for an idiot, but NL do things differently too;
When I started commuting I would meet a "light" control within a couple of weeks of the winter clock change. On the spot fine for each missing light. (Weekend night were popular for random controls for lights too).
The use of a phone while riding is now subject to a hefty fine.
Mopeds (brommers) are frequently pulled for violations.
Try riding on the road when a (compulsory) bike path is available - no bike priority then!! ^_^
In other words, it's not a free for all for cyclists.

Also, schools teach cycling etiquette and many schools do field trips on bikes so responsible cycling is ingrained from a young age, while compulsory driving lessons train drivers how to deal with bikes.

I don't have access links to them now, but there are stories of traffic lights changing patterns in the rain to facilitate bikes (Rotterdam) and regular reviews of traffic flows all designed to minimise the reason for cyclists to break the law.

Finally, there's the infrastructure which is clear and well maintained making it very clear who has right of way and when.

It's not just one thing that makes a difference - it's a whole package. It's complicated and makes it difficult to measure the success or otherwise of one thing. It should be remembered that the situation in NL developed over decades, often in the face of intense hostility from the car/vehicle lobby.

Oh, a priority law does not make any but the most foolish careless or adopt a devil may care attitude. The sheer number of bikes means that you always have to be on your toes.
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
I agree with much of what you post but this bit goes too far. While not a safety improvement, it would be better than the current default that penalises a greater number of blameless cyclists and walkers.


Obviously it doesn't work with current law but I don't see why Parliament couldn't change the law. Incompatible how? It's not like the UK has any base laws that can't be changed. Parliamentary sovereignty, innit?

Negligence, liability and damages come under Common Law/ Tort not statute. Various liabilities have been defined by case law.

That is the major difference between UK and (most) continental law where statute law defines

EDIT:

ie it is not specific laws that are incompatible, but the very system of English Common Law
 
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keithmac

Guru
Mixed feelings on this.
End of March 2005 I was t-boned by a car pulling out onto the "major" road. But because I was only on a bike, I was at fault.

I'd always assumed that vehicles entering a "major" road, had to check there was nothing on the road before pulling out.

That does sound like you got the dirty end of the stick and the car was definitely at fault for pulling out in front of you.
 
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