Persistent lower back pain, need help.

[dude7691]

I would take some time off the bike until the back pain subsides. You could be making worse at the minute by continuing to ride. Once the pain subsides, book in for a basic bike fit at a local shop in order to get your saddle height and bar height set. Then stop fiddling with settings and ride for a bit. But until you let your back settle, anything you do to the bike could just continue to make things work.

I will do, I'm waiting until the light pull on my left side is fully recovered and then I'll ease back into my normal intensity. Yes I'll head to the LBS if the advice I adhere to on here doesn't work, as I know bike fits can get expensive but I'm trying to keep that as my last resort for now at least

 

[dude7691]

Off the bike

Stand up - bend and touch your toes

Then

Lie on stomach raise your neck and head and shoulders


As a rule of thumb position 2 will hurt if it's facet joints - and ease slightly if it's a disc problem.

Don't assume an upright position is better for your back. IME something is causing you're back to spasm - could be disc, arthritis, or just tight hamstrings.

I'd also throw £50 at some decent shorts assuming your riding with those in picture.

I can't get even close to my toes without bending my legs, about halfway down my shins in fact. I have very long legs compared to my torso I think.
Position 2 didn't hurt much if at all, so possibly my discs not sure.

I agree re. upright position. Over compression of certain muscles could cause the spasm you describe I've heard of that.

These are padded shorts, were £20 and provide some good padding and don't chafe. I wear them with baggier shorts on top when I go out riding

 

[dude7691]

Those look like his pants so hopefully not?!

He’s 17 I think, arthritis is unlikely?

Much more likely a simple case of unconditioned new cyclist trying to overdo it on a poorly set up bike.

They're cycling shorts but just very short ones I wore those alone so you guys could better see angle of my legs and glutes in my pedal stroke. I normally wear baggier shorts on top too.

I'm 20, I do look 17 though ahaha.

It's hard to say, I've done 500 miles or so total this year but I agree lack of conditioning is definitely a contributor.

 

[dude7691]

Missed that bit about op being 17

Totally agree on you're second point - overuse too much too soon most likely culprit. Position not noticeably terrible IMO - sure fine tuning required .

Cycle gently - get in an easy gear for the hills.

I'm 20, but yeah close enough

Agreed on overuse, I have done 500 miles this year but I know that's not much, that's like 35 hours on the bike at my easier pace which isn't actually a lot of time.

As for an easy gear, on the 5% grades I'm running a 30/23 mostly, which is my 4th lowest gear. Then anything above 10% I'm already using my lowest gear which is a 30/32 and spinning it at a very high cadence.

 

[faster]

I've read this and the other thread and I've had similar issues in the past - particularly the hamstring tightness/lower back issues stuff, so for what they are worth, here are my thoughts. I'm sure some will disagree - clearly everyone is different, but maybe there are some thoughts/things to try. Yes, I'm aware some of it is seemingly contradictory - it isn't really, this is due to there being different causes of back pain.

- The whole 'less aggressive/more upright positions being better for your back' thing has always sounded counter intuitive to me - especially for someone who is young and should be flexible. How can sitting upright like a sack of spuds on the seat with all of your weight/vibrations going directly up through your lower back be a good thing? I realise it works better for some people, but I doubt it's the panacea that some make it out to be. Much better to be stretched out and able to share some of the weight through your hands IMO.

When I get a bad back, I get the most relief by riding a bike - preferably my TT bike, with it's 'backbreaking' position. Conversely, driving a car or sitting at a desk is excruciating. Your position is a lot closer to me driving my car than like me riding my bike.

The seat looks too low, the handlebars look too high and the stem looks too short.

- They're not really fashionable any more, but try some bar ends. The change won't be obvious at first, but it fundamentally changes how you sit on the bike and how you place your weight in my opinion and the option to change position can a positive. Personally, I like drop bars, but you can get a lot of the benefits of drop bars with a pair of bar ends - cheap and no real down side.

- For me, lower back pain can be caused by tightness in the hip/glute area. Used properly and if this is your problem, a massage ball can work wonders. A tennis/lacrosse ball will do, but the massage balls from Decathlon are good.

- At 20, only being able to reach half way down your shins is poor and needs to be addressed. It's just about good enough for a couch potato who's expecting a life of back problems. I'm 40, and my hamstrings are what I would consider to be very tight at the moment, but I can touch the floor. When everything is right, I can just about get my palms on the floor. Keep working at the hamstring and quad stretches (always do both). You sound like you are doing the right things (yoga is good), but this takes time. It's not a one off effort either. In the modern world of sitting down a lot, it's basically a life long fight - cycling actually makes it even worse. For me the link between hamstring flexibility and back issues is very strong.

- I think you said at some point that you were 'hamstring dominant' whilst riding a bike (or something to that effect) and that was affecting your decision making around how you set your bike up. What makes you say this? I might be wrong, but this sounds like nonsense to me. Whilst cycling, your power comes from your quads and glutes. I can blow a hamstring up whilst running to the point of having to walk with a limp, then jump on a bike a few minutes later with hardly any loss of power. Presumably your hamstrings are sore when you are riding? This isn't because they are generating power - it's a flexibility/position problem.

Whilst imo they add very little power, it's very easy to knacker your hamstrings on a bike if the seat is too high/far back or you are too low at the front for your flexibility. The hamstring problems then create back problems. You may be an a vicious circle of hurting your hamstrings, which then shorten and get hurt even more. I don't think that on a well set up bike (for your flexibility) that your hamstrings should ever hurt/tingle however hard your are pushing. When mine do, I head home slowly and carefully.

I'm not an expert - this is just drawn from my experience with my body over years of cycling and running. If I were you, I'd take some time off the bike and work on my flexibility.

Good luck.

 

[dude7691]

I've read this and the other thread and I've had similar issues in the past - particularly the hamstring tightness/lower back issues stuff, so for what they are worth, here are my thoughts. I'm sure some will disagree - clearly everyone is different, but maybe there are some thoughts/things to try. Yes, I'm aware some of it is seemingly contradictory - it isn't really, this is due to there being different causes of back pain.

- The whole 'less aggressive/more upright positions being better for your back' thing has always sounded counter intuitive to me - especially for someone who is young and should be flexible. How can sitting upright like a sack of spuds on the seat with all of your weight/vibrations going directly up through your lower back be a good thing? I realise it works better for some people, but I doubt it's the panacea that some make it out to be. Much better to be stretched out and able to share some of the weight through your hands IMO.

When I get a bad back, I get the most relief by riding a bike - preferably my TT bike, with it's 'backbreaking' position. Conversely, driving a car or sitting at a desk is excruciating. Your position is a lot closer to me driving my car than like me riding my bike.

The seat looks too low, the handlebars look too high and the stem looks too short.

- They're not really fashionable any more, but try some bar ends. The change won't be obvious at first, but it fundamentally changes how you sit on the bike and how you place your weight in my opinion and the option to change position can a positive. Personally, I like drop bars, but you can get a lot of the benefits of drop bars with a pair of bar ends - cheap and no real down side.

- For me, lower back pain can be caused by tightness in the hip/glute area. Used properly and if this is your problem, a massage ball can work wonders. A tennis/lacrosse ball will do, but the massage balls from Decathlon are good.

- At 20, only being able to reach half way down your shins is poor and needs to be addressed. It's just about good enough for a couch potato who's expecting a life of back problems. I'm 40, and my hamstrings are what I would consider to be very tight at the moment, but I can touch the floor. When everything is right, I can just about get my palms on the floor. Keep working at the hamstring and quad stretches (always do both). You sound like you are doing the right things (yoga is good), but this takes time. It's not a one off effort either. In the modern world of sitting down a lot, it's basically a life long fight - cycling actually makes it even worse. For me the link between hamstring flexibility and back issues is very strong.

- I think you said at some point that you were 'hamstring dominant' whilst riding a bike (or something to that effect) and that was affecting your decision making around how you set your bike up. What makes you say this? I might be wrong, but this sounds like nonsense to me. Whilst cycling, your power comes from your quads and glutes. I can blow a hamstring up whilst running to the point of having to walk with a limp, then jump on a bike a few minutes later with hardly any loss of power. Presumably your hamstrings are sore when you are riding? This isn't because they are generating power - it's a flexibility/position problem.

Whilst imo they add very little power, it's very easy to knacker your hamstrings on a bike if the seat is too high/far back or you are too low at the front for your flexibility. The hamstring problems then create back problems. You may be an a vicious circle of hurting your hamstrings, which then shorten and get hurt even more. I don't think that on a well set up bike (for your flexibility) that your hamstrings should ever hurt/tingle however hard your are pushing. When mine do, I head home slowly and carefully.

I'm not an expert - this is just drawn from my experience with my body over years of cycling and running. If I were you, I'd take some time off the bike and work on my flexibility.

Good luck.

Thank you for your thorough response. I really appreciate it, and your transparency also I appreciate all advice and from personal experience is the best, imo.

I agree with you that maybe I've been sitting too upright and cramped. It's partly been fear of getting flatter because you hear so much about how sitting up is the way to relieve back pain, but I'm determined to change that after what I've been reading here.

Will have a look into bar ends, especially if messing with the saddle height and fore aft doesn't help me out. And yes my position is very similar to when I used to drive as well, very upright and it's the more familiar one that I started riding bikes with when I was a kid haha.

I'll remove some spacers from the bars if moving the saddle alone isn't enough, I fully agree that my bike isn't exactly encouraging a flatter position in it's current setup. Most people don't have their handlebars so high, I just haven't thought to move it since I got the bike new.

I agree regarding my flexibility, it's pretty damn terrible and that's because as you said, modern life takes a toll on how our spines are meant to be. Obviously in school sitting down a lot, same in college and now I'm working from home and I'm sat on my backside for 8 hours a day, although I try to stand as much as I can but I don't have one of those fancy elevating desks so it makes it hard to get work done and stand up at the same time.

Yoga is a new addition for me, I've only been doing it a week but fully intend to keep going at it, it's quite relaxing actually, albeit I find it boring as hell haha, I get my kicks out of high heart rate rather than meditating or yoga, always been the same. But if it helps me on the bike it's worth the boredom.

Regarding hamstring dominance. When I'm going uphill or am trying to go faster than I normally would, I'll point my toes up to engages my glutes and hamstrings more and the difference in power output is noticeable by a long shot. When I moved my saddle forward a few mm as an experiment, my quads were burning like hell because I wasn't using my glutes as much. My hamstrings never hurt in my current position, I'm using them but they are immensely strong from years of working on my feet in my younger days (as a waiter, 14 hours a day on my feet 6 days a week) and so I've used that to my advantage on the bike, I'm a good hill climber when my back isn't killing me.

I can't really take too much time off the bike, as I'm currently doing 500k this month for charity (nothing much I know), it's like 10 miles a day and I've been sponsored so I can't let those people down haha, I didn't really think it through well. But yes, flexibility is now my key focus. In terms of aerobic and muscular development I've come far enough that I don't have to worry about those for a good while.

 

[mudsticks]

From your photo, it looks like you've potentially got very little, if any lordosis..

The natural inward curve in the lumbar region which also sort of acts as a 'shock absorber'

This will be exacerbated by your short hamstrings.
They attach at your buttock bones to the upper end of your lower leg bones, so if short will eliminate that lordosis, and potentially even compress the discs..

Or just put more strain on the untoned muscles.


(as an aside it's often the case that women have an excessive lordosid- so have to work differently if they have back pain in that area)

Keep up with the yoga - even if you find it dull right now it will be worthwhile, you may find it becomes more interesting as time goes on.

When we're allowed to go back to teaching in person, it would be much better for you to attend a real live class where someone can see what you are up to, and correct any misalignments overworking / underworking in certain areas.

It really is worth it.

And do try not to see it as an endless endorphin competition.

I know you're young, but injuries done now can take some time to heal, and will set you back further.

Straining to touch your toes won't help your back or anything, you need to understand how to work the legs, and pelvis and spine, correctly to improve things.

Can you get a better chair with lumbar support if you are sitting down a lot?? that can also help alleviate lower back pain. .

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I’d say your saddle is a combination of two far forward and too low.

Your leg at the bottom of the stroke can have a little less bend. At the top of the stroke there’s a much sharper angle between the upper and lower part of legs than I’d expect. When you push from top of the stroke that will engage the lower back more than it needs to. A symptom of the saddle position.

So adjust your saddle one bit at a time , try moving back first. Then when that’s sorted look at the height. Moving a saddle back increases the distance to the pedals as does raising it. Hence wait till you’ve got saddle fore / aft sorted before you try raising it.

If you can’t get the bottom and top of stroke right by moving saddle you may need shorter cranks. But try the saddle first as replacing cranks isn’t the cheap option.

 

[Twilkes]

I found with drop bars that having them too high meant back pain because my back wasn't actually doing as much work to support itself. Lowering the bars engages my back muscles more, so much so that I can feel the benefit for a couple of days afterwards after an all-day ride. Conversely, five minutes emptying the dishwasher can screw it up again. :-/

 

[dude7691]

I’d say your saddle is a combination of two far forward and too low.

Your leg at the bottom of the stroke can have a little less bend. At the top of the stroke there’s a much sharper angle between the upper and lower part of legs than I’d expect. When you push from top of the stroke that will engage the lower back more than it needs to. A symptom of the saddle position.

So adjust your saddle one bit at a time , try moving back first. Then when that’s sorted look at the height. Moving a saddle back increases the distance to the pedals as does raising it. Hence wait till you’ve got saddle fore / aft sorted before you try raising it.

If you can’t get the bottom and top of stroke right by moving saddle you may need shorter cranks. But try the saddle first as replacing cranks isn’t the cheap option.

That seems to be the consistent opinion here, I've just finished adjusting my saddle. I've moved it 4mm back and the tilt is now nose up by 1 degree vs the 1.7 degree tilt forward before. I tried getting it completely flat but the adjusters wouldn't comply haha.

And yep I'm sure moving the saddle and bars will be enough to remedy the problem, as it's only recently it has started as I've increased my intensity of working out.

 

[dude7691]

I found with drop bars that having them too high meant back pain because my back wasn't actually doing as much work to support itself. Lowering the bars engages my back muscles more, so much so that I can feel the benefit for a couple of days afterwards after an all-day ride. Conversely, five minutes emptying the dishwasher can screw it up again. :-/

That makes sense, and as my bars are too high it might make sense to take a spacer or two out when I get the chance, my back is hurting today as well so I feel like I've worked my back muscles a little more so I know there's a strength element too.

 

[dude7691]

From your photo, it looks like you've potentially got very little, if any lordosis..

The natural inward curve in the lumbar region which also sort of acts as a 'shock absorber'

This will be exacerbated by your short hamstrings.
They attach at your buttock bones to the upper end of your lower leg bones, so if short will eliminate that lordosis, and potentially even compress the discs..

Or just put more strain on the untoned muscles.


(as an aside it's often the case that women have an excessive lordosid- so have to work differently if they have back pain in that area)

Keep up with the yoga - even if you find it dull right now it will be worthwhile, you may find it becomes more interesting as time goes on.

When we're allowed to go back to teaching in person, it would be much better for you to attend a real live class where someone can see what you are up to, and correct any misalignments overworking / underworking in certain areas.

It really is worth it.

And do try not to see it as an endless endorphin competition.

I know you're young, but injuries done now can take some time to heal, and will set you back further.

Straining to touch your toes won't help your back or anything, you need to understand how to work the legs, and pelvis and spine, correctly to improve things.

Can you get a better chair with lumbar support if you are sitting down a lot?? that can also help alleviate lower back pain. .

That might well be the case, I'll need go to do a doctor to get an assessment if the problem persists.

Definitely would love to attend a live class as yes then I can be corrected if and when I do things wrong which mean I'm not getting the full benefit. Once they start up again I'll sign up

I understand, I tend to be a slow healer from most injuries so I'm trying to be as careful as I can

 

[cyberknight]

That seems to be the consistent opinion here, I've just finished adjusting my saddle. I've moved it 4mm back and the tilt is now nose up by 1 degree vs the 1.7 degree tilt forward before. I tried getting it completely flat but the adjusters wouldn't comply haha.

And yep I'm sure moving the saddle and bars will be enough to remedy the problem, as it's only recently it has started as I've increased my intensity of working out.

i changed my seatpost to two bolt micro adjust one receently as you can get your saddle spot on then

 

[dude7691]

i changed my seatpost to two bolt micro adjust one receently as you can get your saddle spot on then

That's a good shout, if I need to I'm pretty sure the tilt isn't what caused the issue but may have exacerbated it. Putting more weight on my sitbones and perineum makes sense to me, I'm sure my bones will take better to the weight than my muscles at least until they're dramatically strengthened.

Interestingly enough, had a cycling spree last year too, where I had the saddle at 1 degree nose up and I was able to do 100k's without back pain, but I was also pootling along at 11-12mph averages vs the 15-17mph I'm doing now, distance dependent.

My confidence in my abilities has increased a lot as well, hence pushing myself hard. My aim now isn't just to get up the hills without dying, it's getting up them as fast as I can and staying just below the point of exploding haha, and that's led to massive strength increases in my legs and aerobic system but perhaps the rest of me hasn't caught up yet

I do try to go slower, but my legs just go faster and I can't stop them xD

 

[cyberknight]

That's a good shout, if I need to I'm pretty sure the tilt isn't what caused the issue but may have exacerbated it. Putting more weight on my sitbones and perineum makes sense to me, I'm sure my bones will take better to the weight than my muscles at least until they're dramatically strengthened.

Interestingly enough, had a cycling spree last year too, where I had the saddle at 1 degree nose up and I was able to do 100k's without back pain, but I was also pootling along at 11-12mph averages vs the 15-17mph I'm doing now, distance dependent.

My confidence in my abilities has increased a lot as well, hence pushing myself hard. My aim now isn't just to get up the hills without dying, it's getting up them as fast as I can and staying just below the point of exploding haha, and that's led to massive strength increases in my legs and aerobic system but perhaps the rest of me hasn't caught up yet

I do try to go slower, but my legs just go faster and I can't stop them xD

Im just starting again to work harder as my ride mates are now dropping me on hills and doing the lions share on the front now , kudos to them but i need to start getting back to my peak of about 3 years ago when i got most of my pbs .Last nigh i did a hill session and my hamstrings were aching at the end .Mind you iam the wrong side of 50 so its getting harder to keep form .