Overwhelming support for giving up more road space to cyclists,........

[Markymark]

Why not just go for the simple and obvious option and remove the hostile?

..won't win many votes - more drivers than cyclists.

 

[w00hoo_kent]

When I first got back into cycling a few years ago, everyone said "oh, isn't that dangerous?". Rarely hear that now, everyone says, "oh yes, I do a bit too, what sort of bike do you have?"

My wife said similar when I told her about this thread. Nobody asks her if her commute is dangerous, they are more concerned with why she wouldn't just use a car and what about the weather? It's very possible that the dangerous moniker has lowered in status over the last couple of years.

Also, I'm really not sure it's an actual reason. When most of the 'why I wouldn't cycle' replies are trotted out I get the suspicious feeling that the one they'd really tick is 'I don't want to because it looks like hard work'.

 

[mjr]

I guess it depends on exactly what you want, if you refuse to share with peds and other cyclists for example or make any concessions what-so-ever then you will almost certainly struggle. but I'd like to recommend the NCN4 Neyland to Haverfordwest. 8 miles of bliss as far as I'm concerned, if you wanted 10 miles though.......well.....it doesn't quite cut the mustard.

I don't mind sharing with other cyclists and walkers are OK if it's wide enough, so I started looking through the cyclestreets photomap from Neyland. The junction to cross the A477 http://cycle.st/p56151 isn't great but I'll call that a concession. Next I met this bike-blocking barrier: http://cycle.st/p56152 - those things cause nasty crashes. There are more of them http://cycle.st/p56156 http://cycle.st/p56169 - Mountain and hybrid bikes started off with old-fashioned motorbike handlebars (600mm wide by 22.2mm thick I think), so those barriers logically can't work as claimed and I feel they're often more about making life difficult for cyclists than anything else.

Much of it looks really quite good like http://cycle.st/p28790 http://cycle.st/p56172 http://cycle.st/p56173 - and http://cycle.st/p56168 is better than many but I'm not sure it should give way to the road, really.

Then at the other end, http://cycle.st/p56177 looks like an "over the shoulder" junction, where riders are expected to look both ahead and behind simultaneously, instead of the track sweeping out to meet the road at right angles with proper visibility... and http://cycle.st/p56178 is a more extreme example of it.

So I'd say that's a fairly good route let down by poor end junctions and bad barriers.

 

[angus h]

Why not just go for the simple and obvious option and remove the hostile?

If you mean the bad drivers.. it's because most bad driving is not the product of a 1% of sociopathic a-holes who drive like they stole it 100% of the time (yes, there are a few of those, but they really are a few), but the product of probably 10-50% of the driving population when they're having a particularly bad minute, hour, day, week or month. So the idea that you can simply banish bad driving is unrealistic - it's too widely dispersed through the population.

Now, much as I'd like everyone who ever gets behind the wheel to do so with the reactions of a fast jet pilot and the concentration of a neurosurgeon, that's not the reality when mass motoring is the order of the day. So yes you can remove some of the hostile with 20mph limits, enforcement, refresher driving tests every 10 years etc., but I can't see how that can remove enough of it to enable mass 8-80 cycling (and if any of the above are done rigorously enough to be effective, the motoring lobby whinge like spoiled babies having their toys taken away).

It's not a car thing specifically, anyhow - London commuters have a high potential for dickish behaviour even on foot, but the damage pedestrians can do one another is fortunately pretty limited. Human nature is hard to fix.

 

[Markymark]

Make it 6 points and lost license for a year with a retest, instant ban for mobile use, 10 year retest and you'll soon see people perk up.

But it wont happen as it'll be too unpopular with the electorate.

 

[Mugshot]

I don't mind sharing with other cyclists and walkers are OK if it's wide enough, so I started looking through the cyclestreets photomap from Neyland. The junction to cross the A477 http://cycle.st/p56151 isn't great but I'll call that a concession. Next I met this bike-blocking barrier: http://cycle.st/p56152 - those things cause nasty crashes. There are more of them http://cycle.st/p56156 http://cycle.st/p56169 - Mountain and hybrid bikes started off with old-fashioned motorbike handlebars (600mm wide by 22.2mm thick I think), so those barriers logically can't work as claimed and I feel they're often more about making life difficult for cyclists than anything else.

Much of it looks really quite good like http://cycle.st/p28790 http://cycle.st/p56172 http://cycle.st/p56173 - and http://cycle.st/p56168 is better than many but I'm not sure it should give way to the road, really.

Then at the other end, http://cycle.st/p56177 looks like an "over the shoulder" junction, where riders are expected to look both ahead and behind simultaneously, instead of the track sweeping out to meet the road at right angles with proper visibility... and http://cycle.st/p56178 is a more extreme example of it.

So I'd say that's a fairly good route let down by poor end junctions and bad barriers.

Well, you've started in the wrong place. Go to the marina instead, have a look at the boats and maybe a cup of coffee in the cafe first, or last. The barriers, well I would say if you choose to crash into something then it can cause an injury, I do take your point about mountain bikes, but the idea of course (I suspect you are aware) is to keep motorcycles off and horses actually) All the rest lovely jubbly until the other end, but I'm afraid you've gone further than the 8 miles i mentioned, as I said, if you want to go 10 miles it doesn't quite cut the mustard. If you want to get rid of all barriers and sections where you cross the road there is a very easy solution, the alternative is some concessions. As a cycle facility (actually shared use) I think it's excellent.

 

[Mugshot]

So the idea that you can simply banish bad driving is unrealistic - it's too widely dispersed through the population.

Acknowledging that bad driving exists and dealing with it accordingly would be a start. From casual speeding to mobile phone use to skimming past a cyclist at 80mph, they're all treated with a shrug of the shoulders and dare I say it, it's somebody having a bad minute, hour or day, well if it's that bad that is affects your driving maybe you shouldn't getting in the car in the first place.

 

[angus h]

Exactly, User13710 - but, if you assume that people are losing the right to drive regularly, that means alternatives have to exist. As is, it's taken for granted that people will want or need to drive when they're angry, stressed, tired, sad, ill and a million other things.Yet with a transport system that offers reasonable alternatives - so that those who've been banned, or those simply not feeling their best, can still get from A to B reasonably efficiently, then who really needs to drive those trips at all?

 

[mjr]

Well, you've started in the wrong place.

Story of my life... In my defence, I was just following NCN4 as suggested.

Go to the marina instead, have a look at the boats and maybe a cup of coffee in the cafe first, or last. The barriers, well I would say if you choose to crash into something then it can cause an injury, I do take your point about mountain bikes, but the idea of course (I suspect you are aware) is to keep motorcycles off and horses actually)

That's the claimed idea, but they don't do it, nor can they as long as most non-racing pedal cycles use the same size handlebars as motorcycles... and horses used to get through the narrow barriers installed near the start of this bridge https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1se__EXEo0lg8SCn_4p9R8YA!2e0 so they'll get almost anywhere.

In reality, the main function of those barriers is at best to slow cycles right down to almost stopped and at worst to cause injury to cyclists - and no, it's not because they "choose to crash" into them. It's because deliberately putting obstructions in cycleways is not safe.

All the rest lovely jubbly until the other end, but I'm afraid you've gone further than the 8 miles i mentioned, as I said, if you want to go 10 miles it doesn't quite cut the mustard.

So where would I be after 8 miles? Anywhere worth going, or does it mean that bit is basically a dead end?

But that's what I meant: there are some good bits of cycle path in the UK, but I don't know one that is good all the way through. It's like near me, NCN1 is pretty good from the A1078 to the B1144, but few people want to go from the A1078 to the B1144 - they want to go across the dangerously botched Level Crossing junction of the B1144 and into the town centre, or over the lumpy tree roots to the villages further north.

 

[Mugshot]

Story of my life... In my defence, I was just following NCN4 as suggested.

That's the claimed idea, but they don't do it, nor can they as long as most non-racing pedal cycles use the same size handlebars as motorcycles... and horses used to get through the narrow barriers installed near the start of this bridge https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1se__EXEo0lg8SCn_4p9R8YA!2e0 so they'll get almost anywhere.

In reality, the main function of those barriers is at best to slow cycles right down to almost stopped and at worst to cause injury to cyclists - and no, it's not because they "choose to crash" into them. It's because deliberately putting obstructions in cycleways is not safe.

So where would I be after 8 miles? Anywhere worth going, or does it mean that bit is basically a dead end?

But that's what I meant: there are some good bits of cycle path in the UK, but I don't know one that is good all the way through. It's like near me, NCN1 is pretty good from the A1078 to the B1144, but few people want to go from the A1078 to the B1144 - they want to go across the dangerously botched Level Crossing junction of the B1144 and into the town centre, or over the lumpy tree roots to the villages further north.

Personally I think theyre there to stop less experienced riders riding straight out into the road.
At the end of the path you could turn round and head back, 16 miles of cycling would be quite a challenge for many riders, i guess it depends where you want to go.
It seems that what you would like is a system of paths which criss cross the country and enabled you to get to just about any destination in the UK which cyclists are free to use, now if only we could come up with a catchy name for them

 

[summerdays]

Personally I think theyre there to stop less experienced riders riding straight out into the road.

Barriers also stop the inexperienced and experienced cycling off the road too! I have one set that you have to queue to get through and sometimes that's on the road, if there is more than one cyclist waiting.

 

[mjr]

Personally I think theyre there to stop less experienced riders riding straight out into the road.
At the end of the path you could turn round and head back, 16 miles of cycling would be quite a challenge for many riders, i guess it depends where you want to go.
It seems that what you would like is a system of paths which criss cross the country and enabled you to get to just about any destination in the UK which cyclists are free to use, now if only we could come up with a catchy name for them

Ah there we go! Useful or well-built, but in this country if you want both then you are some kind of loon! FWIW I'm OK riding on most roads but I don't always enjoy it and I can quite understand why it deters some people from riding. It sucks to have a choice between a cycle-unfriendly rural A road and a big detour.

It doesn't seem very clever to make less experienced riders concentrate on not crashing into obstacles when they should be concentrating on crossing roads. It doesnt work either: I've seen riders approaching the NCN26/A368 junction from the north be so relieved at getting through the barrier partway down the descent that they rolled right out into the road. It would be better to paint a big marking and put up a sign than distract them with barriers.

 

[Mugshot]

Ah there we go! Useful or well-built, but in this country if you want both then you are some kind of loon! FWIW I'm OK riding on most roads but I don't always enjoy it and I can quite understand why it deters some people from riding. It sucks to have a choice between a cycle-unfriendly rural A road and a big detour.

It doesn't seem very clever to make less experienced riders concentrate on not crashing into obstacles when they should be concentrating on crossing roads. It doesnt work either: I've seen riders approaching the NCN26/A368 junction from the north be so relieved at getting through the barrier partway down the descent that they rolled right out into the road. It would be better to paint a big marking and put up a sign than distract them with barriers.

I haven't personally seen anybody ride into a barrier or into the road having negotiated one, but I do take your point. However if you are looking for a segregated cycle network what are you proposing would be allowed on them and how do you propose we stop the things you don't want on there getting on there.
I do believe that on the face of it the idea of a segregated cycle network is appealing, the issues come when you get down to the nitty gritty. We've touched on one already, who is segregated and by what means, but you also have the where will they be, because they wont be everywhere nor will they go everywhere, the cost would be astronomical where would the money come from and so on.
Whilst I will not try to suggest that it is a regular occurance it is not unknown for me to be told to "Get on the cyclepath" by a helpful driver if I'm riding alongside one, but I'm also told to "Get off the road" if there isn't a cyclepath to ride alongside. I cannot for a moment imagine that these incidents would improve if more segregated cycle routes were introduced. We already have a wonderful network which we can use as cyclists, in my opinion it would be far better financially and make travelling far better for all road users if we were to concentrate our resources into better education and better adherance to the raft of laws which exist which should be sufficient to protect us all already.
Now, what was the question again?

 

[Mugshot]

Exactly, User13710 - but, if you assume that people are losing the right to drive regularly, that means alternatives have to exist. As is, it's taken for granted that people will want or need to drive when they're angry, stressed, tired, sad, ill and a million other things.Yet with a transport system that offers reasonable alternatives - so that those who've been banned, or those simply not feeling their best, can still get from A to B reasonably efficiently, then who really needs to drive those trips at all?

Do they? I don't see why people that act in a manner which means they lose their license should be able to demand that an alternative exists nor do I see that I should feel obliged to provide one for them. As it happens alternatives do exist bicycle or Shanks' pony spring to mind.

 

[clid61]

This planet will never serioulsy encourage less use of cars and more use of bikes as the powers that be #want people sat in their own little cells be it home plane or car and not interact with other people