Overwhelming support for giving up more road space to cyclists,........

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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
That cycling declined in that period is not in dispute. I don't understand the argument though, are you claiming that people do dispute this?

Someone seemed to:

the decline?

Laudable though the corollary is, where is the evidence that this taking the lane, in a separatist way, would be likely to work?
Yes, the evidence is weak, either for or against. Where has it even been tried and measured properly in the UK before?

Possible examples in London or Norwich (often imperfect, but they're all I can think of) seem to be variously too young (Royal College Street Camden), I failed to find the data (I didn't find counts for University Drive Norwich or the notorious narrow Tavistock Place, while some only counted after taking the lane - would it have been so hard to count while it was being considered?), or appear to be distorted by another obvious factor (London Cycle Hire starting in 2010 seems to coincide with a big jump in most of its areas).

Even then I know it would be open to accusations of deflecting riders from other routes (does that matter though?) and no single scheme so far looks likely to cause a measurable change at the area level.
 

Bikemiff

New Member
That cycling declined in that period is not in dispute. I don't understand the argument though, are you claiming that people do dispute this? Laudable though the corollary is, where is the evidence that this taking the lane, in a separatist way, would be likely to work?

New member. I would suggest that in UK, 1930s to 50s, motoring was promoted as inevitable, desirable and congestion regarded as deplorable. Thomas Sharp, renowned for town planning, was employed to produce 'Oxford Replanned', 1948.
He illustrates various traffic counts at junctions, including Carfax, Oxford High St junction, Vehs: 5370, Cycles: 5482 (8 am to 8pm). He writes,
  • It will be noticed that, in the figures given above, some prominence has been accorded to the number of bicycles that help to make up that volume of traffic at the various points mentioned. In most English towns and cities bicycle traffic can be more or less ignored as a factor leading to traffic congestion. It cannot be ignored in Oxford. The bicycle is not only one of the main components in any Oxford landscape: it is one of the main causes of traffic congestion. ... In Cornmarket St, cyclists and pedestrians overflowing from pave,nets to carriageway (which might ordinarily just manage to function as a four-lane street) to an effective capacity of only two lanes for vehicles on more than two wheels. So these, and the 24,000 two-wheeled vehicles that are propelled over Magdalen Bridge in a single day, cannot be lightly dismissed as a number of mere bicycles. A few locusts are of little importance. A swarm is a plague".
Whilst Sharp's conclusion for Oxford was a road through Christchurch Meadow, (not actually expunged for ten years) his perception that a bike was not a mode of traffic has not disappeared in 'our' thinking. To cycle safely, for most needs segregation on the busy roads. This is demanding as 60+ years of 'informed' orthodoxy is that it's unnecessary. My recipe isn't massive doses of extra spending. In Oxfordshire the bicycle is so disdained by transport planners and some engineers, that the Cycle Ambition project has known problems and no safe space. A major junction by the station has tight-ish roads for buses and other vehicles, and very large footway areas. Following five years are battling the footways are now 'shared', in part. But no indicated path for cycling, and of course, almost no connections between this shared space and the three traffic roundabouts which must be negotiated. You cant have paths because, given their own space, cyclists will go too fast and ignore pedestrians.

Such insane and prejudiced logic will not ever change, only direction will win. Norman Baker tried hard, using the word 'enable' as often as possible. But he couldn't rewrite the rules, or guidance.

I put my faith ... in instructing HAs to enable cycling for all, in every street reconstruction. Since the busiest routes are all our busiest routes, and roads last a generation or so before needing major reconstruction, such an 'edict' could see the nation's busiest general roads rebuilt for the use of anyone cycling, safely, in a generation or so. Whilst that implies a long wait for a kind of perfection, it could start in the next couple of years as my County spends millions each year on reconstruction. And whilst 'extra' moneys would be needed for significant new infrastructure, most of the network could be changed for next to nothing.

Of course, 'the will' is everything.

Graham
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Yours certainly is. You seem to be relying on a graph that's cobbled together by a CEGB acolyte from data extrapolated from another source.
It's rather pathetic to attack the source rather than the data but I'm not "relying on" that one at all. I just thought it was fairly clear. There are plenty of others. Have a table of raw data:
8363197407_e38e56d9eb_z.jpg

Draw whatever graph you like and show that there wasn't a decline. Pick whatever data you like as long as the source is cited.
And you wonder why the wider world doesn't take 'cycling campaigners' like you seriously...
I wonder no such thing. I'm taken seriously by some of the decision-makers - I wish it were more, but the bike-bashers have their representatives too. I know I'm not taken seriously by a few on this forum who seem to long for a return to the failed approaches.
If there is no strong evidence for, there is no argument to justify what amounts to a wild and expensive experiment. Those who wish to promote this have just got to do better, otherwise they are doing no more than peddling a faith.
I've asked about the evidence in a few places and I'll let you know if any comes back. Even if there isn't, experimentation is worthwhile, for if we don't experiment then we'll never know the effect. I think it would be good if some of the sceptics were pushing hard for the measurements to be taken properly, before and after, if it goes ahead.

It's not like there was strong evidence that London Cycle Hire would work before it started, though. Actually the contrary: hire schemes had been spectacular failures in a few UK cities.
As for things that haven't been tried, we still have the simple option open to us. Police our roads with a view of protecting the vulnerable from the dangerous.
I campaign for that too, but that's not going so well - I think that's mainly because police resources are being cut and there may be further cuts in several of the party manifestos for next year's election. If you want it, keep pushing for it, but it's not in direct competition with infrastructure.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Why is it not going so well? Perhaps if we chucked all our resource behind campaigning for road justice for all, as opposed to special pleading for cyclists, we might get somewhere.
I tried to explain why it's not going so well, but in short: policing is being cut for reasons unrelated to cycling.

I doubt that all our resource would be sufficient to overcome that. Also, it's a rare organisation that puts all its eggs in one basket, or all its hopes on one campaign, so it seems highly unlikely that everyone funding or working on cycle campaigning (BikeBiz, CTC, BC, CN, Sustrans(?), ...) would agree to push only for road justice to the neglect of all else, especially when it seems like road and street design seem to be becoming open to change again.

Another table taken out of context and another set of assertions.
Just channelling Statler, rather than able to show any alternative? :rolleyes:
 
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classic33

classic33

Leg End Member
I tried to explain why it's not going so well, but in short: policing is being cut for reasons unrelated to cycling.

I doubt that all our resource would be sufficient to overcome that. Also, it's a rare organisation that puts all its eggs in one basket, or all its hopes on one campaign, so it seems highly unlikely that everyone funding or working on cycle campaigning (BikeBiz, CTC, BC, CN, Sustrans(?), ...) would agree to push only for road justice to the neglect of all else, especially when it seems like road and street design seem to be becoming open to change again.


Just channelling Statler, rather than able to show any alternative? :rolleyes:
Australian Cyclists Party
One of the founders is a member on here.
 
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classic33

classic33

Leg End Member
I refer you to the lists of campaigns at https://australian-cyclists-party.org/policy-options/ and http://lcc.org.uk/pages/policy (left sidebar) and nearby linked pages.
See my previous post above, with regards the A.C.P..
 

snorri

Legendary Member
Evidence of what? Graphs showing what?
You appeared to be claiming there was no evidence to suggest segregation would lead to increased cycling, but that increased policing would lead to increased cycling.
I merely ask for evidence to back up that claim,if that is what you claimed..
 

Drago

Legendary Member
In order to prove an assault over a driving offence one needs evidence of mens rea. Without that then often the driving offence is all that one is left with.

There's a difference between what we think know, and what the CPS thinks we can prove to a court.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
First part, go back a couple of pages and start with the graph. We are told by people promoting segregation that it is the only way and that it worked in the Netherlands. The graph does not show this.
Yes, please, go back a couple of pages and read why the graph was posted: one illustration among many of the decline of cycling in the UK during the mid/late 1900s; and nothing to do with a made-up argument with imaginary demons. With hindsight, I wish I had removed the NL line from it.
Second part, no I cannot prove it at all, because we haven't tried it.
If there is no strong evidence for it, is there no argument to justify what amounts to a wild and expensive experiment?
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I can understand why you would wish in retrospect to have removed the NL data from the graph. It doesn't show what you want it to. Unfortunately this just illustrates your fundamental dishonesty here.
As stated repeatedly, I wanted it to show the decline in cycling in the UK, which it does - or can you explain why not?
Simply enforcing the laws of the land is neither an experiment nor need it incur any additional expense.
Why is more law enforcement cost-neutral?
 
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