Not closing down anymore: Bob Jackson Cycles
- Thread starter avecReynolds531
- Start date
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IanSmithCSE
Guru
- Location
- Worcester, Worcestershire
Good morning,
Just watching a bit of GCN as it is pouring down and 10 minutes into
https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.co...-canyon-bmc-cervelo-more-gcn-tech-show-ep-176
they mention the 753 Team Replica bike along with a web site screen shot and made it sound like a new release!!!
This seems to tell us that the market for steel really is tiny, they only had 250 to shift. Okay at £2,500 it carries a price premium of around £1,000-£1,250 over what it would sell for with a plain paint job and 725.
Both Ribble and Genesis have (out of stock) products where there is a small price increase for steel frames over aluminium but this increase seems reasonable and acceptable to the market, they have sold all of them.
A few years back I looked into the metals rather than the marketing and the 531/753 metal is a lot closer to the 525/725 metal than might be expected. The one's a Manganese/Molybdenum alloy and the other a Chromium/Molybdenum alloy argument turns out to be a gross over simplification. :-)
Especially when considering that this was a limited run of 753 tubes and that the metal is bought on the open market, so there may have been a greater variation in the composition of the alloy than was normal for batches 40 years ago.
Bye
Ian
Just watching a bit of GCN as it is pouring down and 10 minutes into
https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.co...-canyon-bmc-cervelo-more-gcn-tech-show-ep-176
they mention the 753 Team Replica bike along with a web site screen shot and made it sound like a new release!!!
This seems to tell us that the market for steel really is tiny, they only had 250 to shift. Okay at £2,500 it carries a price premium of around £1,000-£1,250 over what it would sell for with a plain paint job and 725.
Both Ribble and Genesis have (out of stock) products where there is a small price increase for steel frames over aluminium but this increase seems reasonable and acceptable to the market, they have sold all of them.
A few years back I looked into the metals rather than the marketing and the 531/753 metal is a lot closer to the 525/725 metal than might be expected. The one's a Manganese/Molybdenum alloy and the other a Chromium/Molybdenum alloy argument turns out to be a gross over simplification. :-)
Especially when considering that this was a limited run of 753 tubes and that the metal is bought on the open market, so there may have been a greater variation in the composition of the alloy than was normal for batches 40 years ago.
Bye
Ian
Last edited:
DCLane
Found in the Yorkshire hills ...
- Location
- Dewsbury, West Yorkshire
@IanSmithCSE - GCN are a bit slow on this front as it was released last July: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/raleigh-ti-40th-anniversary/
But yes, it's an odd one. I'm guessing they've not sold the whole 250 yet
But yes, it's an odd one. I'm guessing they've not sold the whole 250 yet
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
i think the Raleigh Team Replica has struggled for two reasons; one is the high price, the second is the fact that it isn't a true replica. Therefore it's too expensive for anyone who just wants steel, and not historically faithful enough for those enthusiasts who want an actual Team bike copy. Thus it ends up pleasing almost no-one.
Many steel buyers natural inclination is to go secondhand anyway, for the better value and much wider choice of models.
As you will have discovered, the alloys used in 531/753 vs 525/725 are not simple ones containing just two alloying agents. They each have about half a dozen ingredients, and most are common to both tubesets but used in differing proportions.
In practical terms, 525 can be used as a straight substitute for 531 and I doubt any rider would be able to tell the difference in a blind test of a frame built from tubes drawn to the same wall thicknesses. 531 is ultra-niche now because it should be brazed, whereas 525 can be brazed or welded so is more versatile.
If Reynolds went back to the old pre-1989 style decals and used them for 525/725, even the most hardcore traditionalist would be happy. The worst thing about the 525 stickers is they don't look like the old 531 stickers!
BalkanExpress
Legendary Member
- Location
- Brussels
@IanSmithCSE - GCN are a bit slow on this front as it was released last July: https://www.bikeradar.com/news/raleigh-ti-40th-anniversary/
But yes, it's an odd one. I'm guessing they've not sold the whole 250 yet
Judging by the critical kicking they have received from the SBDU community I am suprised they sold any
https://raleigh-sb4059.com/2020/09/13/raleigh-uk-ti-raleigh-40th-anniversary-reynolds-753-frameset/
DCLane
Found in the Yorkshire hills ...
- Location
- Dewsbury, West Yorkshire
I'd not seen that. To quote: "TI40-192 is nothing more than a collection of red, black and yellow heat treated steel tubes." Ouch!
IanSmithCSE
Guru
- Location
- Worcester, Worcestershire
Good afternoon,
I have been looking at the Raleigh site for a while hoping for a clearance sale, it has too much bottom end equipment for me to say "let's just pay a bit more than it's worth as it's a special edition and not worry about it".
I was then hoping that people would think that it's a Europa and not bother nicking it as they aren't worth much.
What I have noticed is that a lot of 525/725 frames on the market pre covid were Reynolds branded main tubes and unbranded stays and forks, at least the Raleigh is 753 throughout.
Even the newish Croix De Fer12/12 which is marketed as Built entirely from 725 tubing has the spec sheet saying Frame Reynolds 725 Heat-Treated Chromoly 12mm Thru-Rear-Axle, Fork Chromoly Disc Fork With Anything Cage Mounts With 12mm Thru-Axle. Which is easy to read as non 725 forks.
The previous version had non Reynolds stays and forks.
Ribble seem to avoid this question, they say on the website The frameset is manufactured from British Reynolds 725 steel tubing which would make me think 725 stays but the bike has a CF fork and to me frameset has always meant frame and forks. The older stickers that were very clear about this seem to have gone out of fashion, the Ribble has a Butted Frame Tubes sticker, but then so does the Genesis.
I appreciate that in reality this makes very little difference, except to the price, £10 per stay to Genesis or £20 per stay or £80 by the time the frame is sold and maybe an extra 100g or 2 Mars bars? But by that reasoning you could go for unbranded or Genesis own brand, Mjolnir, throughout.
So there is a strong case for saying that it is a £1k frame, even if the rest of the bike may only cost around £600 if you bought the bits individually retail.
I am also curious about the reality of 10 speed downtube shifting, I love 10 speed, but my only experience of it is with Di2 and making a lot of gear changes to get the most out of it when riding fast (for me). I wonder if with DT shifting the reality is that it would be ridden like an 8 speed as changing gear for a single tooth would be too much hassle?
Prior to breaking it, I would decide if I was going out for a slow or fast ride and if slow then pick the 8 speed downtube bike, stick it in 52x19 and almost forget about the gears.
I realise that "back in the day" 6 speed 13-18/19 freewheels existed but the rear mech movement was greater along with a bit more tolerance to a slightly imperfect shift.
Bye
Ian
That describes me very well.
I have been looking at the Raleigh site for a while hoping for a clearance sale, it has too much bottom end equipment for me to say "let's just pay a bit more than it's worth as it's a special edition and not worry about it".
I was then hoping that people would think that it's a Europa and not bother nicking it as they aren't worth much.
What I have noticed is that a lot of 525/725 frames on the market pre covid were Reynolds branded main tubes and unbranded stays and forks, at least the Raleigh is 753 throughout.
Even the newish Croix De Fer12/12 which is marketed as Built entirely from 725 tubing has the spec sheet saying Frame Reynolds 725 Heat-Treated Chromoly 12mm Thru-Rear-Axle, Fork Chromoly Disc Fork With Anything Cage Mounts With 12mm Thru-Axle. Which is easy to read as non 725 forks.
The previous version had non Reynolds stays and forks.
Ribble seem to avoid this question, they say on the website The frameset is manufactured from British Reynolds 725 steel tubing which would make me think 725 stays but the bike has a CF fork and to me frameset has always meant frame and forks. The older stickers that were very clear about this seem to have gone out of fashion, the Ribble has a Butted Frame Tubes sticker, but then so does the Genesis.
I appreciate that in reality this makes very little difference, except to the price, £10 per stay to Genesis or £20 per stay or £80 by the time the frame is sold and maybe an extra 100g or 2 Mars bars? But by that reasoning you could go for unbranded or Genesis own brand, Mjolnir, throughout.
So there is a strong case for saying that it is a £1k frame, even if the rest of the bike may only cost around £600 if you bought the bits individually retail.
I am also curious about the reality of 10 speed downtube shifting, I love 10 speed, but my only experience of it is with Di2 and making a lot of gear changes to get the most out of it when riding fast (for me). I wonder if with DT shifting the reality is that it would be ridden like an 8 speed as changing gear for a single tooth would be too much hassle?
Prior to breaking it, I would decide if I was going out for a slow or fast ride and if slow then pick the 8 speed downtube bike, stick it in 52x19 and almost forget about the gears.
I realise that "back in the day" 6 speed 13-18/19 freewheels existed but the rear mech movement was greater along with a bit more tolerance to a slightly imperfect shift.
Bye
Ian
Last edited:
IanSmithCSE
Guru
- Location
- Worcester, Worcestershire
Almost tempted, there's 10% off the 56cm 753 Team Replica at
https://www.paulscycles.co.uk/bikes...v0qlNuueIeOjn0Z2oNbRBkbBwVwA7XDxoCRwEQAvD_BwE
With discount code BLACKFRIDAY10, at least that's what the advert says and I don't want to check and order it by mistake!
I still think that it's only worth around £1,500 though.
https://www.paulscycles.co.uk/bikes...v0qlNuueIeOjn0Z2oNbRBkbBwVwA7XDxoCRwEQAvD_BwE
With discount code BLACKFRIDAY10, at least that's what the advert says and I don't want to check and order it by mistake!
I still think that it's only worth around £1,500 though.
Cycleops
Legendary Member
- Location
- Accra, Ghana
I’d say it’s very overpriced. If you pull it apart as Ian has done it really doesn’t add up. They’re tugging at the nostalgia angle and hoping people out there don’t mind paying over the odds but if you’re a canny hand up cyclist you might want to put one together yourself for a fraction of their asking price.
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
I'm yet to be persuaded that the replica is worth it, as to me it's questionable if its aproper Raleigh given it wasnt either built in the Raleigh factory or fabricated by Raleigh staff. I have a couple of nice 531 frames that are unquestionably real Raleighs, and I don't see the Team Replica as offering me anything extra. OK, mine are relaxed Touring type Raleigh frames not racy ones, but I like the way they ride and if I want more sporty then I've got a Dawes 531 to tick that box.
