Non members continuing to ride with club

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Sharky

Guru
Location
Kent
I have insurance via the CTC and have used their services to make a claim. Might also have cover via my household insurance, but I've not read the policy properly.

But there must be thousands of children, mum's & dads, casual cyclists etc, riding around without specific cycling insurance and could all be the cause of an accident. So does it really matter if the non club member doesn't have insurance? If he loses a claim against him, then he will lose his life savings or his house - do we care?
 

swansonj

Guru
So, as that now seems to be what we are discussing, can I ask, how often is ride leader insurance called upon in practice? Is being sued a relatively common occurrence, or a theoretical possibility only?
 

T.M.H.N.E.T

Rainbows aren't just for world champions
Location
Northern Ireland
I have insurance via the CTC and have used their services to make a claim. Might also have cover via my household insurance, but I've not read the policy properly.

But there must be thousands of children, mum's & dads, casual cyclists etc, riding around without specific cycling insurance and could all be the cause of an accident. So does it really matter if the non club member doesn't have insurance? If he loses a claim against him, then he will lose his life savings or his house - do we care?
Random stranger mums and dads aren't riding inches from my back wheel, nor am I riding inches from theirs.
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
I've got it.

You draw lots and the loser engages the non payer in a conversation about chain lube or sprockets or tubeless tyres or something. While the non payer is deep in conversation, and possibly animated because the club member is making frankly outrageous claims about Finish Line Ceramic, everyone else buggers off as quickly and quietly as possible.
 

PaulSB

Squire
I have insurance via the CTC and have used their services to make a claim. Might also have cover via my household insurance, but I've not read the policy properly.

But there must be thousands of children, mum's & dads, casual cyclists etc, riding around without specific cycling insurance and could all be the cause of an accident. So does it really matter if the non club member doesn't have insurance? If he loses a claim against him, then he will lose his life savings or his house - do we care?

The point of club insurance is it covers the ride leader and the club. It does NOT cover those taking part in the ride. Therefore if a rider who does not comply with the insurance requirements is on the ride his/her presence may negate the cover. If an incident occurred the leader and club would not be covered due to the actions of another individual.

Individual riders are responsible for their own insurance. They are not covered by club insurance.

Most of our members are BC members to take advantage of BC insurance.
 

PaulSB

Squire
So, as that now seems to be what we are discussing, can I ask, how often is ride leader insurance called upon in practice? Is being sued a relatively common occurrence, or a theoretical possibility only?

I've no idea but given the cost via BC club affiliation is negligible it's better to have than not. One aspect of insurance is one hopes never to use it.
 

swansonj

Guru
I've no idea but given the cost via BC club affiliation is negligible it's better to have than not. One aspect of insurance is one hopes never to use it.
Yes and no.

"Yes" in that if the cost of insurance is small and we can protect ourselves against a major expense, and especially if doing so brings us peace of mind, then why not do it, no matter how low the risk? I would not criticise any individual who took out insurance, for pretty much anything, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing for society as a whole.

"No" in that this feeling "I must have insurance just in case" is emblematic of several trends in our society which are by no means healthy or helpful. First, the feeling that we can protect ourselves against risk, usually by spending money, encourages us to believe that life and the decisions we make in it can be consequence-free, because we can always buy our way out of the consequences (I'm not going to mention Brexit :smile:). That's obviously a delusion, and the more embedded that delusion becomes in a society, the less that society will tend to make responsible decisions. Second, the more we take out insurance against being sued, the more we indirectly reinforce the culture that suing is a normal and appropriate things to do, and I think most of us would say the culture of always looking for someone to sue or at least to blame has gone too far. Thirdly, whilst I stand by what I said about the right of anyone to protect themselves against a risk, no matter how small, there comes a point where the risk really is small and you have to ask whether it's worth it. There are plenty of risks that are so small we effectively ignore them in the way we organise our lives. But there's something about some risks that, as soon as someone has pointed it out, we feel we have to rush to take action, almost without stopping to assess it. Hence cycle helmets (second :smile:); hence, possibly, ride leader insurance, because no-one has yet quantified how common being sued is.

Most rare things that happen in cycling, someone here will have a personal example: being hit by a car, various mechanical failures, attacked by dogs, most health conditions, you name it. So has anyone got an instance of a ride leader being sued?
 

PaulSB

Squire
I understand your "no" points and would, to an extent, agree. However in the topic under discussion we are looking to protect an individual who freely gives his/her time and experience to benefit others. It seems reasonable to offer the individual protection against unforseen events outside of his/her control. I don't believe any ride leader's behaviour would change by knowing the cover is there.

As for quantifiable examples I think you're asking a question 99.9% of people here or cyclists in general would struggle with. I certainly can't give you an answer. I suppose this could lead to a view the risk is talked up simply to sell the insurance. I've had house contents insurance for 38 years without a claim - should I stop? Of course not.

Out of interest I tried a few Google searches and found:

  1. Surrey based MTB instructor sued for pushing a pupil too hard.
  2. California group rider suing the entire ride over a crash.
  3. Strava sued for encouraging a user to be over competitive and die while trying to regain a KOM.
  4. A spin instructor sued
So nothing specific to ride leaders using a simple search.

Myself I have full cover for my bike at zero cost as it's house contents cover, BC cover for myself at £41pa and Lexham recovery at £15pa. Total cost of £56. I ride three times a week so this is 35p/ride to cover every eventuality.

It seems eminently sensible to me and something any cyclist should have. I don't believe it changes my behaviour on the bike or in life but does offer protection against those who do not know how to behave correctly.
 
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cyberknight

As long as I breathe, I attack.
I understand your "no" points and would, to an extent, agree. However in the topic under discussion we are looking to protect an individual who freely gives his/her time and experience to benefit others. It seems reasonable to offer the individual protection against unforseen events outside of his/her control. I don't believe any ride leader's behaviour would change by knowing the cover is there.

.
My thoughts exactly, unfortunately the world we live in you need to cover your backside just in case.
 

PaulSB

Squire
£178
i think the club sec is coming around to my way of thinking

As an aside our main reason for affiliating with BC was to take advantage of the membership management tools. You or your secretary may not be aware affiliated clubs can use BC to handle all membership payments. We now have 100% of our 198 members all paying online via BC. The reduction in workload for our Membership Sec is huge. Historically we accepted cash, cheque, PayPal, bank transfer but within 12 months successfully moved everyone online. If someone really can't handle this we will make an exception but it's very, very rare. We have one member, in his late 70s, who asks his son to do it for him.
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
A guy I used to ride with 10? years ago, had a few years previously had a £40k plus payment from the CTC insurance of a rider who caused a crash on a CTC ride. Broken hip and weeks off work.
 
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