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FishFright

More wheels than sense
Regarding Verstappen's racing style, I read elsewhere that Senna used to do exactly the same. Martin Brundle described how Senna would throw his cars into corners and force the other driver to make a decision - back out or crash. After that, all Senna had to do was put a wheel inside at a corner and he was through. The problem came when Senna came up against Mansell who chose the crash option, repeatedly.

When Senna was breaking through and beating Prost, the British media backed Senna and all we heard about was the nasty tactics and mischief-making of the French driver who became the villain. Against Mansell, the British press did a volte face and switched to "Good old Nigel" against the foreigner.

The narrative for this entire season has been about Lewis good guy, patron saint of little lambs and good causes "Just wanting to race safely" Sir Hamilton OBE Godblessyouguv against the big bad Max foreigner who stood in the way of our hero gaining godliness. I think this has been a quite deliberate campaign on Mercedes' part, putting doubt in the mind of the race director and trying to influence decisions. When Verstappen lunged inside at lap one, he was doing the same as Senna but Masa inexplicably allowed Lewis to keep the place despite cheating to get it. Perhaps the season-long cries of Verstappen the dangerous aggressive driver weighed on his mind. And maybe, the decision at the end was him levelling things up again. Not so outrageous - it's very common to see football referees do this in a game.

I watched during the Senna era and even though he was without doubt one of the very best he had a dark streak on the track that meant I could never really support him. Even though I was later a huge Schumacher fan so go figure.

Neither of them would be allowed to drive that way nowadays and that is definitely a good thing.
 

Bonefish Blues

Banging donk
Location
52 Festive Road
Has the replacement been named yet ?
No not yet, election on 17th December
 
As I posted earlier the FIA are supposed to be looking in to race manipulation . The last race shows deliberate fixing ! Not only that but the the way in which gambling may have come into it . With odds of 8 to 13 for Lewis to win as opposed to 2 to 1 for Max to there is quite an incentive to make Max the winner !
 

FishFright

More wheels than sense
As I posted earlier the FIA are supposed to be looking in to race manipulation . The last race shows deliberate fixing ! Not only that but the the way in which gambling may have come into it . With odds of 8 to 13 for Lewis to win as opposed to 2 to 1 for Max to there is quite an incentive to make Max the winner !

That might be as thorough as Cressida Dick's investigation of the Downing St. party
 

classic33

Leg End Member
As I posted earlier the FIA are supposed to be looking in to race manipulation . The last race shows deliberate fixing ! Not only that but the the way in which gambling may have come into it . With odds of 8 to 13 for Lewis to win as opposed to 2 to 1 for Max to there is quite an incentive to make Max the winner !
William Hill aren't paying out until tomorrow, the earliest. Coral stopped paying out yesterday.

Who fixed the race deliberately, and how did they benefit?
 
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OP
Reynard

Reynard

Guru
Regarding Verstappen's racing style, I read elsewhere that Senna used to do exactly the same. Martin Brundle described how Senna would throw his cars into corners and force the other driver to make a decision - back out or crash. After that, all Senna had to do was put a wheel inside at a corner and he was through. The problem came when Senna came up against Mansell who chose the crash option, repeatedly.

When Senna was breaking through and beating Prost, the British media backed Senna and all we heard about was the nasty tactics and mischief-making of the French driver who became the villain. Against Mansell, the British press did a volte face and switched to "Good old Nigel" against the foreigner.

If you're talking about 1988, I'm not so sure. The media left Senna in droves after he stuffed Derek Warwick over the Lotus drive at the tail end of 1985.

At that time, Warwick was still far more popular than Mansell in the press, although that did change quite quickly after that, given Derek didn't have an F1 drive for 86 as a result of Senna's temper tantrum.

FWIW, Senna used the same tactics in junior formulae, not exactly endearing himself to a fair number of his fellow competitors. Usually when his actions left them with a big repair bill. You can't exactly expect a leopard to change his spots after all.

Prost was no angel, but he worked much more subtly - you only realised you'd had the carpet pulled from under you when you ended up on your arse on a bare floor...
 

classic33

Leg End Member
That is for the future . If Mercedes were to suddenly pull out it would leave teams scrabbling round for engines. It also takes time for teams and engines to work together .
IF Mercedes were to pull out of contracts to supply engines, already paid for. Do you think that having paid for them, teams would just say "Oh well". Or would they go further in recovering their money?
 
OP
OP
Reynard

Reynard

Guru
That is for the future . If Mercedes were to suddenly pull out it would leave teams scrabbling round for engines. It also takes time for teams and engines to work together .

It's not like back in the day where you could get a DFV or a Judd off-the-shelf...

Remember at the tail end of the turbo era when Honda took themselves off to McLaren after TAG-Porsche pulled the plug on their programme? Williams had put together a contract with Renault for 1989 when the new 3.5 normally aspirated engine regs came in, and Honda threw their toys out of the pram over it, leaving Williams without an engine for 1988.

That was until they negotiated with John Judd to supply the team with his 3-litre normally-aspirated V8 for that year as a stop-gap measure.

Not really an option these days, given how complicated the hybrids are. Maybe F1 could take a leaf out of the BTCC's book and build its own engine that teams may be free to use if they don't have a contract with Merc or Ferrari or whatever. The TOCA engines are often better than what the manufacturers put together...
 
IF Mercedes were to pull out of contracts to supply engines, already paid for. Do you think that having paid for them, teams would just say "Oh well". Or would they go further in recovering their money?
They threatened to do it before.
Have they paid for them ? It seems as though teams switch to whatever best engine option is available .
Brawn now Mercedes were left without an engine when Honda pulled out . Mercedes didn't want to be linked with the McLaren Ferrarigate issue and so did a deal to supply engines . Honda are pulling out but Red Bull with continue manufacturing the engine .
 

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