Mickle's tip of the - Season to be Jolly: Wheel truing.

[Blue Hills]

Take it or leave it you say?

I'll leave it, thanks all the same.
Any guide to wheel truing or building which includes phrases like " having all spokes at the same tension is less important " is highly suspect.

If you aim to get your spoke tensions even within about 10% on the Park gauge - or if no gauge, get them to within one semitone of each other when plucked, then your wheels will stay true a lot longer. This is more important than trying to get your wheels true to within 10ths of a millimetre.

Have Just started edging towards wheel tinkering/building. Can I ask how close in percentage terms you try to get your spokes? I ask as the park wheel trueing app/web page seems to think 20 per cent acceptable. But on the other hand have seen some wheelbuilders claim to produce 5 per cent. Which seems very hard to achieve, by the likes of me at least.
Answers to this question from other folks also welcome.

 

[Blue Hills]

Yep. If you have a spokey type spoke key, mark the side you turn towards to tighten. (Roger Musson recommends a dot in permanent marker).

At least one of my Spokeys is made with a mark already on it.

 

[Ajax Bay]

how close in percentage terms you try to get [the tension in] spokes [on the same side]?

The wheel needs to be true in radius, true in plane: centred between the dropouts. Having achieved that, the spoke tension equality (each side, or both on a non disc front wheel) will be a commentary on the accuracy/quality of the rim. Second check after stress relieving. Achieving congruity (plus or minus a deviation) of spoke tension is not an end in itself. Most rims will have aberrations either near the spoke hole or near the welded/pinned join: and that's fine.
Enjoy the tone of a good pluck for its musical merit: you're not trying to tune a piano.

 

[RichardB]

The wheel needs to be true in radius, true in plane: centred between the dropouts. Having achieved that, the spoke tension equality (each side, or both on a non disc front wheel) will be a commentary on the accuracy/quality of the rim. Second check after stress relieving. Achieving congruity (plus or minus a deviation) of spoke tension is not an end in itself. Most rims will have aberrations either near the spoke hole or near the welded/pinned join: and that's fine.
Enjoy the tone of a good pluck for its musical merit: you're not trying to tune a piano.

I have only ever built *motorcycle* wheels, and have only ever *tinkered with* bicycle wheels, so I am a proper amateur and my opinion is probably worthless, but I would second this. I have never had a bicycle wheel with evenly-tensioned spokes. I've had wheels which are true (+/- <1mm) both laterally and vertically, and yet had some spokes which were tight and others almost slack. Played musically, they were like Stockhousen rather than Mozart. Trying to get the tension even (and yes I have tried) has led to the wheel going out of true rather than the reverse. I had assumed the reason was variations in material quality, thickness etc. I've never had a wheel collapse or warp under me, and I am no lightweight, so my wheels must have been at least OK. For me, if you've got the wheel true, then you're done.

 

[Ajax Bay]

if you've got the wheel true, then you're done.

Well just to add, the tension needs to be round about right generally: no point in having a loose true wheel, and this is especially so for a dished rear wheel's left hand spokes.

 

[Blue Hills]

Well just to add, the tension needs to be round about right generally: no point in having a loose true wheel, and this is especially so for a dished rear wheel's left hand spokes.

yes, must admit I don't really understand the "if it's true all is well " theory.
For surely a wheel with all the spokes completely loose, ie just laced, will be true but you wouldn't want to ride it?
I am assuming (I'm not techie) that unlaced rims are essentially true to start with.

 

[Pumpman]

I’ve read many, but not all, of the posts in this thread and there seem to be a recurring argument about whether the tension of all the spokes should be the same (as any builder of new wheels will probably insist) or whether there will be a wide variation in tension (as experienced re-truers of used wheels have found). I do not believe these ideas are contradictory.
If a new wheel is being built, using a perfectly true rim, then equally tensioned spokes will not change its shape and so it will result in a perfectly true wheel – in theory at least. However, if the wheel has been ridden and its rim is out of true, then equally tensioned spokes will still not change its shape and so it will remain out of true. The “repair” is achieved by using differences in spoke tension to pull the rim back to its original true shape

 

[RichardB]

Well just to add, the tension needs to be round about right generally: no point in having a loose true wheel, and this is especially so for a dished rear wheel's left hand spokes.

Sure, but there is a big difference between 'about right' and 'all spokes must ring with the same musical note or the wheel is rubbish', which I have heard some people say. I was assuming the spokes weren't actually loose, just that some will be looser than others without the wheel being out of true.

yes, must admit I don't really understand the "if it's true all is well " theory.
For surely a wheel with all the spokes completely loose, ie just laced, will be true but you wouldn't want to ride it?
I am assuming (I'm not techie) that unlaced rims are essentially true to start with.

A rim might be perfectly flat and circular, but you wouldn't call it true. True is when it is laced onto a rim so that it spins on the axle without wobbling either side-to-side or up and down. 'True' applies to a spinning wheel, not its component parts. This may be achieved with all the spokes equally tight, or some might be slacker than others but the wheel still run true; that was really the point I was making.

 

[RichardB]

If a new wheel is being built, using a perfectly true rim, then equally tensioned spokes will not change its shape and so it will result in a perfectly true wheel – in theory at least. However, if the wheel has been ridden and its rim is out of true, then equally tensioned spokes will still not change its shape and so it will remain out of true. The “repair” is achieved by using differences in spoke tension to pull the rim back to its original true shape

Good explanation.

 

[Ajax Bay]

a recurring argument about whether the tension of all the spokes should be the same (as any builder of new wheels will probably insist)

I think there are plenty of builders of 'new' wheels that don't insist this. But as you say, if a wheel builder uses excellent, true at manufacture rim (assuredly welded rather than pinned) then the tensions will be in a narrow range (ie equal plus or minus not much). Have just seen a DT Swiss instagram post saying:
dtswiss
#engineeringperformance at work:⁣
"Spoke tension is the hidden force that makes your wheel durable, provides precise steering and gives you the ability to accelerate.⁣
The art of wheel building is to set the spoke tension as close as possible to the given maximum while keeping the deviation of the tensions between them as low as possible."
They are building with quality rims (of their own quality assured brand) so don't feel the need to mention that the 'art of wheel building' has as a primary requirement (ranked before equal tension and close to max tension) the need to tension the spokes so the wheel is true. With low spoke counts the requirement for accurate true rims before lacing to a hub is of greater importance.

 

[Blue Hills]

Yes,my understanding is that getting the tensions close to each other reduces the need for further tinkering/makes the build more stable.
By stable, i stress that i don't mean not going to collapse,but maintaining the build, avoiding spokes changing tension when ridden.
For folks who believe in getting them close, can I ask how close you aim for?
The park tool app/web page seems to condider plus or minus 20 per cent to be acceptable, but it shows results for 5 per cent.
And Spa claims to build to 5 per cent.

 

[Ajax Bay]

my understanding is that getting the tensions close to each other reduces the need for further tinkering/makes the build more stable. . . .
avoiding spokes changing tension when ridden

Care to share a link to support your understanding? Why would equality of tension reduce the need for tinkering? What do you mean by 'stable'?
For the avoidance of doubt, the tension in spokes varies markedly "when ridden": every revolution the tension will drop maybe 30% as each spoke reaches the 6 o'clock position (eg 1000N down to 700N).
Proper and effective stress relieving (and making sure spokes have no residual twist during the final part of the wheel build) should mean that, apart from the designed tension oscillation (above), spoke tensions at rest will be the same 10,000km later (or much more), on a well-built wheel.
Can't help on your quantative deviation from equality question: sorry.

 

[Blue Hills]

Care to share a link to support your understanding? Why would equality of tension reduce the need for tinkering? What do you mean by 'stable'?
For the avoidance of doubt, the tension in spokes varies markedly "when ridden": every revolution the tension will drop maybe 30% as each spoke reaches the 6 o'clock position (eg 1000N down to 700N).
Proper and effective stress relieving (and making sure spokes have no residual twist during the final part of the wheel build should mean that, apart from the designed tension oscillation (above), spoke tensions at rest will be the same 10,000km later (or much more), on a well-built wheel.
Can't help on your quantative deviation from equality question: sorry.

i thought i explained what I meant by stable (you chopped it out of my quote).
Will try to get back with some sort of authority for my understanding - ie someone who builds wheels.
So far I have just tinkered/true-ed.

 

[Blue Hills]

Here, from Roger Musson.
He's talking about tensionometers.
"Some people use a tensiometer to check that the spokes in the wheel have equal tension, I prefer to pluck the spokes."

which implies I think that he tries to get the spoke tensions kinda equal.

 

[Ajax Bay]

If you've built a wheel and, on checking, the wheel (rim) is pleasantly circular with no high or low points, and the wheel is true (or good enough) and you've stress relieved and ensured no spoke twists remain . . .
BUT the tensions are not equal(ish), how do you then go about getting the tensions closer to equal yet keep the wheel circular and true?
And why? Provided the spokes are well tensioned Ie the opposite of loose), what is the jeopardy of running a wheel with unequal tensioned spokes?
NB On one side of the wheel - obviously there'll be a difference from one set one side to the other set the other side on a dished wheel.