Low Carb High Fat

[srw]

Doing the sums (as I'm typing), using as a reference: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy

50g of carbs, at 4 calories per gram, equates to about 200 carbohydrate calories. I'm assuming here that with all the faff of sticking to a very strict diet you're both aware of the exact composition of food, rather than using "50g of carbs" as a shorthand for "50g of food containing carbs".

At a rough guess, given the weight loss both of you have declared, and knowing how difficult it is to eat large quantities of protein or fat without carbs to provide a contrast, you're on restricted-calorie diets of, say, 1600 calories per day.

That means that 200/1600 = 12.5% of your calorie intake is from carbs - more if you go higher. That's low and abnormal. Frustratingly, the wiki-page on Ketosis (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis) gives a different ratio than the one I found above for carbs - but, conveniently for me, one not different from 12.5% (and much higher than the one FD suggests) - and gives four different references for the fact that it's not low enough to induce ketosis.

Looking at the wiki-page on the ketogenic diet used to treat epilepsy (the things you learn from Cyclechat - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet) gives a figure of between 86% and 90% of calories from fat.

My best guess - and bear in mind that I'm an ordinary sceptic, not a medic - is that you're eating a reasonably balanced restricted calorie diet, rather than anything inducing a specific and different digestion pathway. Which, frankly, doesn't surprise me all that much - most diets, when you come to investigate them, come down to the same thing. And, no surprise, eating a restricted calorie diet is (a) very difficult to keep up over the very long term, (b) effective in the medium term, and (c) very effective in the short term, then makes you feel lousy for several weeks.

 

[Flying Dodo]

Interesting. However, the initial weight loss is down to the kick starting process of switching to ketogenic, as the recommendation is to only eat around 1500 calories a day for the first couple of weeks, which with the salt loss meaning a proportion of the rapid loss is due to removal of stored water. However, then it kicks in and starts removing fat (which is where my long term beer gut disappeared).

Although I'd posted what I ate Saturday, to be honest, that was unusual as I didn't eat as much as usual, as that's another advantage of a ketogenic lifestyle as you don't get the hunger cravings/rumbling stomach/need to feed.

I've just spent a bit of time adding up calories for a typical range of day's foods, and reckon I consume around 2,300 - 2,500 calories per day.

Once you get over the initial conversion phase, where you do feel a bit lethargic and I found I'd lost the top 25% of my power cycling, after about 8 weeks the energy & power comes back, and then basically it's like a flywheel, as you can just keep on going. As I mentioned earlier, I'm quite happy doing a 100 mile ride at a fast pace, without stopping or needing to eat anything. I've been on it for 18 months without any problems in keeping to it, especially as you lose the addiction to sugar. The only thing I check when cooking is grammes of carb. Avoiding bread & pasta makes it easier.

 

[brand]

Normal meats, cheese, cream, butter. Whatever takes my fancy. For example on Saturday I had strawberries and cream for breakfast, then went shopping and cycled a few more miles with 30 kg of shopping. Then I went out & did some more cycling before coming back to spend a few hours working on bikes. Had a couple of handfuls of peanuts around 3 pm, and then about 6pm pan fried some chicken fillets with chillies, which I then ate with some vegetables smothered in molten cheese. Then I had some blueberries with cream.

I evacuate my bowels normally once a day, occasionally twice, but perhaps once or twice a week it might go to a second day between movements. There's far less waste material, as the body isn't being bulked up with stuff it can't fully use. So less toilet paper is used as well.

This sounds more like the Atkins diet? Hardly massive on fat. And not really that short on fruit and veg. Although nowhere near mine. As I am on the 5:2 permanently I a had large salad, jacket nothing on and chicken breast in the George Foreman, no need for any oil. Good for you!! I am also trying to increase my beer/cider consumption although this is only to help keep village amenities going as I don't really like beer!

 

[brand]

"What a load of rubbish" - back atcha.

I for one was born with carbohydrate intolerance. Yes, born with it. Yes, totally intolerant. To ALL carbs. Coupled to that is a tendency to hyper-insulinism... which is related to hypoglycemia... which is related to -- guess what -- type 2 diabetes.

You are talking absolute rot and don't even know it because you're so convinced your opinions are correct, you haven't -- and, I'll bet, WON'T -- bother to research the facts.
Excuse me, my temper got away with me. I just can't tolerate the intolerance (irony intended) and judgemental attitude you are showing here. I have lived 45+ 42 years of varying degrees of hell due to carbohydrate intolerance, so this is really really making me angry.

**ETA to deduct the 3 years of BLISS attributable entirely to a LCHF lifestyle.

Give over what proportion of the population do you represent?

 

[Mo1959]

Avoiding bread & pasta makes it easier.

That's me snookered from the start. I am a breadaholic!

 

[Flying Dodo]

Give over what proportion of the population do you represent?

Same proportion as you.

Seriously though, I've known a number of people who have issues generally with carbohydrates and carbohydrate intolerance is a well known medical condition. One girl at work has found just about anything with carbs in triggers off her IBS.

 

[Flying Dodo]

This sounds more like the Atkins diet? Hardly massive on fat. And not really that short on fruit and veg. Although nowhere near mine. As I am on the 5:2 permanently I a had large salad, jacket nothing on and chicken breast in the George Foreman, no need for any oil. Good for you!! I am also trying to increase my beer/cider consumption although this is only to help keep village amenities going as I don't really like beer!

Loads of fat in fact. 10 strawberries is only about 15g of carb, and 100 ml of blueberries is 15 g. Split between the 2 portions of fruit I had probably at least 450 ml of cream on them. Chicken fried in butter. Actually I've just remembered I also cooked some mushrooms in cream with it. Not much carbs in the veg I ate. Peanuts are mainly fat.

 

[srw]

Interesting. However, the initial weight loss is down to the kick starting process of switching to ketogenic, as the recommendation is to only eat around 1500 calories a day for the first couple of weeks, which with the salt loss meaning a proportion of the rapid loss is due to removal of stored water.

Not quite. The initial weight loss is down to the kick-starting process of eating a restricted diet.

At 2000 calories per day, your 200 calories of carbs is still 10%, which is still considerably more than the epilepsy-controlling ketogenic diet - and that's possibly without counting whatever there is in meat and other proteins*.

If either you or Jogger has had a medical test to confirm ketosis, I'll believe you're ketotic. Otherwise, I'll maintain scepticism. And admit that a diet without any particular type of food (that I like) is my idea of hell - and thankfully I absolutely don't need it because of strict intolerance or allergy.


*This page suggests that processed meat and offal has a reasonable amount, while if you eat pulses or green veg you're also eating something with some carbs in.

 

[Flying Dodo]

Oh my god you are suggesting I give up Brussel sprouts!

I've always liked Brussels sprouts, but then again they've never given me any issues like wind.

Here's a nice recipe for you.

In a frying pan, cook a couple of rashers of bacon, then allow to cool, then cut into small pieces. Chop the Brussels sprouts in half, then cook in a saucepan of boiling water until almost soft. Then add the sprouts to the bacon, and fry them together for a few minutes, and pour on some sweet chilli sauce, then eat.

 

[velovoice]

Give over what proportion of the population do you represent?

Doesn't matter, as you said "NO ONE AT ALL". You are wrong.

ETA: But if you're truly interested, I'll dig out the statistics when I get home tonight.

 

[Flying Dodo]

Not quite. The initial weight loss is down to the kick-starting process of eating a restricted diet.

At 2000 calories per day, your 200 calories of carbs is still 10%, which is still considerably more than the epilepsy-controlling ketogenic diet - and that's possibly without counting whatever there is in meat and other proteins*.

If either you or Jogger has had a medical test to confirm ketosis, I'll believe you're ketotic. Otherwise, I'll maintain scepticism. And admit that a diet without any particular type of food (that I like) is my idea of hell - and thankfully I absolutely don't need it because of strict intolerance or allergy.


*This page suggests that processed meat and offal has a reasonable amount, while if you eat pulses or green veg you're also eating something with some carbs in.

The medical research out there does confirm what I've said re the intial weight loss. It was only calorie controlled for the first 2 weeks, and yet I consistently lost roughly 1 kg per week for 8 weeks. As an aside, at the end of about 3 months, my waist measurement had gone from 36" to 32", a size it hadn't been for 25 years. I had to buy loads of new clothes, suits, cycling shorts etc.

In addition, for ketosis to continue, it's not the calories, but the quantity of carbs that's the key factor. Once you go above a certain amount, then the body switches back to running on carbs. Generally, the fitter the individual, the higher the threshold. Several times in the last 18 months I know I've gone quite a bit over 100g which I reckon is roughly my maximum, and then all of a sudden, even a short bike ride makes me bonk (as my body has hardly any glycogen). So I have to get back on the wagon again to get running on ketones again.

If I wasn't currently in ketosis I couldn't do the prolonged exercise I do without needing to eat anything, as my body simply wouldn't have the glycogen to fuel the muscles, which is what it would need if I was running on carbs. Plus I can tell from the smell of my urine.

 

[NotthatJasonKenny]

I was tested for ketosis, you can buy wee sticks!

 

[The Jogger]

I bought the sticks and I'm half way along the chart.

 

[gurninman]

You mean - other than the millions of books and food products sold under the lable of "Atkins"? I've lost count of the number of places I've seen "low-carb" ready meals available recently.

So far as I can tell, the real issue is that people eat more than they need - it's elementary physics. There are a heck of a lot of reasons why that happens, which is a fascinating topic touching on psychology, biology, marketing and chemistry. With the possible exception of the fat-sugar combo no individual food or ingredient is intrinsically bad, but it's all very available, expectations of portion sizes have increased, and the food (sorry FF) and marketing industries have got very good at persuading us to consume it.

TBH, I've never seen a low carb ready meal - but then I never buy ready meals (and never have done) anyway
What I was trying to say about the lack of money to be made is that the general public think that fat in food is bad - this is wrong, and the real danger is sugar and carbs.
In response to the commmonly held views on fat in food, big business pushes low fat products with a vengeance and because of the perception of 'fat is bad', Joe Public buys them
Low-fat almost always means an increase in carbs to maintain some semblance of edibility - with corresponding nasty effects to human biochemistry
I got fat by eating too much - most of that was starchy foods .I love bread , rice , pasta etc. and suspect that the huge amounts I was eating was the trigger for the diabetes
Since drastically cutting back on carbs, only consuming them in veg / fruit etc. , my blood sugars have become almost the same as a non-diabetic
No doubt as I lose more weight this will improve still further , combined with regular exercise.

 

[Fab Foodie]

Inspired by @The Jogger (there’s a surprise ) and @Flying Dodo spirited and sincere defence of his diet plan, I decided to do some self-experimentation ….

[WARNING: CONTAINS ANECDATA]

I gave-up sugar, pasta, rice, bread, pastry, cake, cereal, potato.
I just increased the salad, fruit and veg components of my regular diet. I was travelling and didn’t find it too difficult to make these choices work either.
I was extra grumpy for the first 1- 2 days
Then I was OK.
In fact I soon started to feel better than OK. I felt more alert, less tired and significantly less hungry. I slept better. I also felt less tense/heartbeaty. I also felt less bloaty/windy.
I didn’t consciously restrict the quantity of food, just ate until I felt replete.
After a week of travel I got home and wife and daughter both mentioned I even looked thinner. My belt is certainly at least one hole tighter.

At one difficult moment after a very early start without breakfast I had a few chocolate biscuits (more out of habit than need) and felt very hyper with a rapid heartbeat soon after.
My Daughter also has the same ‘sugar rushes’ as me and finds restricting Carb intake helps, Mrs FF however doesn’t have them at all. It’s possible that our insulin responses vary and there may be hereditary issues involved.

Bike-wise, I’ve been going like the clappers, but that may not be related.

Long story short, I’ve felt so good this last week that I’m going to see if I can keep eating this way until Christmas. I’m not Ketonic (at least my wee smells OK still – Asparagus intake aside). Towards Christmas I’ll get a fasting Cholesterol check (I need one anyhow) and see how it looks. I might get some wee strips.

I remain both sceptical and incredulous, though I've never advocated low fat/high carb diet as being a good thing. I've also seen some good correlations (I know it's not =causation) showing the explosion in adult and childhood obesity with the rise of the low-fat diet.
My thinking is that I am restricting my calories @srw through simply feeling less hungry and not having any cravings.

Other skeptics ... try what I did and report back!