London Assembly Transport Committee's review of cycle schemes

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dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
..and so, having journeyed to work, and awaiting the return of the Men of Steel, having given thanks to the Ken the God of all Bus Lanes for having the 38 and 73 buses keep the tarmac free of ice (I imagine that Tavistock Square's hommage to Groningen is like a skating rink right now) I return to the theme......

...of the 73 and 38 buses. Sometime earlier this year I watched those two lines start out from Victoria. One 73 bendybus (God bless bendybuses and all who ride in them) pulled out from Victoria every three minutes - full to the gunwales. One 38 bendybus (ditto) pulled out every three minutes. That's almost 100 bus passengers a minute on just two lines. Now, I know a thing or two about getting cyclists out of Victoria Station - in fact I probably know as much as anybody on the subject. There is no way you're going to get 100 Bromptonistes a minute out of Victoria station. And I am telling you that Victoria is not Centraal station - there is nowhere that you are going to store the number of bikes that you would need to put those hundred folk a minute on bikes.

Some things bikes do brilliantly. People find their potential in cycling, they find an inner peace, they find the beauty of nature and the wonder of cities. Bicycles are (almost) democratic, they're aids to conversation, and they can play a part in making cities more congenial. They can bolster local high street and corner shop trade rather than hypermarket trade. They give kids independence. Rumour has it they're cheap. They require little or no public investment. But mass transit in 9 million people cities - they help, certainly, and could help London a great deal more than they do now, but they're not the biggest, quickest fix, which is always going to be trains and buses delivering people within walking distance of their destination. And here's the saddest thing. A congenial city is, among other things, a city that allows my mum, (or a seven year old) to cross the road when and where she wants. How do cycle lanes do that? They don't. They just make it more difficult. How do cycle lanes help small shops in high streets - they don't - they cut off the frontage. How do cycle lanes help wheelchair users? I leave that one to you.

Stowie mentioned two things that really could do with expanding on. Strict liability insurance is, potentially, the biggest thing for cycling you can imagine. In 1970s Vancouver the state owned monopoly car insurance company told drivers they wouldn't be covered if they hit a pedestrian. Result - pedestrians stepped off the kerb with the air of seaside promenaders. vehiclle speeds dropped to 25mph on broad suburban streets and cyclists multiplied like rabbits in a city in which the climate is rubbish (I remember it raining every day in August). So - strict liability insurance could change our streets for the better, reduce speed, reduce injuries, and cost, in aggregate, nothing at all.

The other point he made was about Hyde Park. There's no question that the paths parallel to Park Lane are a good thing. The question is - what's the potential of paths across parks? I'm pretty gloomy about them. I accept that they give cyclists a competitive advantage, I accept that they increase permeability, and that they offer another layer of oversight which may deter crime. On the other hand - some of us who campaigned for the path across Tooting Common back in the 80s have to recognise the resentment that's caused by cyclists effectively cutting the common in half - as we have to recognise that the small number of cyclists on canal towpaths are not neccessarily an ornament. I suspect that circumstances alter cases. The path across Clapham Common, which affords cyclists a safe and convenient route from Streatham, Balham, Clapham and points south to Chelsea Bridge seems to work well, but then it's not as well used as one would imagine it could be. The general point is that there is a heirarchy of provision and that pedestrians, not cyclists, are at the top of that heirarchy.

And - the steel men are here, the carpenters are here, the sparks is here!
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Can I just say one, or maybe two things.....

All who vociferously advocate urbane Dutch and Danish models for us in urban Blightly. Are you going to adopt their model wholesale....? Riding in normal clothes, upright bikes, no more lycra, hardly a drop bar in sight, hipsters on fixed looked at askance, going considerably slower, etc., etc.. No? Thought not.

So ask a different question. Why do johnny and joanna foreigner, with their enviable modal share, ride in a 'style' that is as utterly, UTTERLY, different to the great mass of riders in London as it is possible to adopt? And 'infrastructure is not the answer.
 

As Easy As Riding A Bike

Well-Known Member
Can I just say one, or maybe two things.....

All who vociferously advocate urbane Dutch and Danish models for us in urban Blightly. Are you going to adopt their model wholesale....? Riding in normal clothes, upright bikes, no more lycra, hardly a drop bar in sight, hipsters on fixed looked at askance, going considerably slower, etc., etc.. No? Thought not.

So ask a different question. Why do johnny and joanna foreigner, with their enviable modal share, ride in a 'style' that is as utterly, UTTERLY, different to the great mass of riders in London as it is possible to adopt? And 'infrastructure is not the answer.

I'd love to be able to cycle in a slower and more relaxed fashion in normal clothes, for day-to-day activities. It's a pain in the arse having to change in and out of cycling clobber. The problem is I feel safer on the roads if I can keep my pace up - negotiating with traffic becomes easier - and that of course necessitates lycra, dropped bars, and so on.

I wouldn't say I am a "vociferous" advocate of the Dutch and Danish model. I fact, I would say that we are in great danger of overstating the differences between "vehicularists" and "segregationists" - it's sad but inevitable, I think.

We all want to see more people cycling - especially people who don't ride at all. We all want to see streets that are safer and more civilised for pedestrians and cyclists. And there's a very large overlap of agreement in the methods that should be employed, certainly on quieter streets, where segregation should not be at all necessary - I'm thinking of things like lower speed limits, restricted access for cars, more shared space, and so on.

At the other extreme, an area where the case for segregation is - I think! - unanswerable is along major A and B roads between towns. I avoid these like the plague because they are so deeply unpleasant to cycle along. I am never going to cycle on the A281 between Horsham and Guildford ever again, unless there are major changes. Likewise the A29. Too many near death experiences. There is no margin at the side, and the speed differential is so great, it's frankly terrifying. Look at the KSI locations for cyclists - such a large number are on busy "rural" A and B roads, out of all proportion with the number of cyclists using them.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
haha Georgian streets. Do you honestly find a bike path uglier than a wide street with cars parked all down it and ugly painted lines down the side!?? And you're a cycling campaigner. You're fine for CARS to have their own lanes, but not for BIKES. You think that BIKE LANES are ugly and spoil a Georgian Street but CAR LANES full of large humps of metal are not???? My god.

Hold on just one moment. How do you get a BIKE LANE without creating a CAR LANE next door to it?
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
I'd love to be able to cycle in a slower and more relaxed fashion in normal clothes, for day-to-day activities. It's a pain in the arse having to change in and out of cycling clobber. The problem is I feel safer on the roads if I can keep my pace up - negotiating with traffic becomes easier - and that of course necessitates lycra, dropped bars, and so on.

No it doesn't. Trust me on that. One of the joys of the Boris Bike is that I've realised that cycling through London is just as fun, and just as safe, on a slow, heavy bike in a suit as it is on a Brompton in lycra.

At the other extreme, an area where the case for segregation is - I think! - unanswerable is along major A and B roads between towns. I avoid these like the plague because they are so deeply unpleasant to cycle along. I am never going to cycle on the A281 between Horsham and Guildford ever again, unless there are major changes.

The minor route via Ewhurst is actually shorter than the A281 or the B2126. You won't get cars doing silly speeds along that, and I happen to know quite well (we used to have a training centre in Ewhurst) that it's very quiet outside peak times. In that context, the case for separation falls over - segregated routes over 20 hilly miles are terribly expensive (just think of all the re-landscaping!) and there are viable alternatives.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
I will concede that there are primary routes in the countryside that could really do with an enlarged (and swept) hard shoulder. The short section of the A12 that doesn't have the old Roman road running parallel comes to mind. (I'm not sure that there isn't a seperate cycle path to the side that's overgrown). And the A281 isn't fun to ride on unless you're a sad middle-aged man desperately trying to prove something - but, as srw says, it's a heck of an ask to put a lane to even just one side when there's a decent route to the east.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
I'd love to be able to cycle in a slower and more relaxed fashion in normal clothes, for day-to-day activities. It's a pain in the arse having to change in and out of cycling clobber. The problem is I feel safer on the roads if I can keep my pace up - negotiating with traffic becomes easier - and that of course necessitates lycra, dropped bars, and so on.

Ride a boris bike. for day-to-day activities. it's what I do when work takes me to London. no chance of wearing lycra I have to dress for the destination, usually a meeting at which I'm representing my employers, not the journey. Sometimes I take my Strida. No question of keeping up the pace on that. Personally I think arse up heads down is a dreadful riding position for commuting, and I'm a big fan of cross top levers as a result.

I wouldn't say I am a "vociferous" advocate of the Dutch and Danish model. I fact, I would say that we are in great danger of overstating the differences between "vehicularists" and "segregationists" - it's sad but inevitable, I think.

This is the interwebs. It ain't real life. debate gets polarised because people like to take a pose on things.

I'm not really in either camp. I just ride where I'm allowed to do so, if a cycle path works for me I'll ride on the path, if it doesn't I won't. So few of them do work for me on so many levels.

We all want to see more people cycling - especially people who don't ride at all. We all want to see streets that are safer and more civilised for pedestrians and cyclists. And there's a very large overlap of agreement in the methods that should be employed, certainly on quieter streets, where segregation should not be at all necessary - I'm thinking of things like lower speed limits, restricted access for cars, more shared space, and so on.

20's plenty et al. Yep we agree

At the other extreme, an area where the case for segregation is - I think! - unanswerable is along major A and B roads between towns. I avoid these like the plague because they are so deeply unpleasant to cycle along. I am never going to cycle on the A281 between Horsham and Guildford ever again, unless there are major changes. Likewise the A29. Too many near death experiences. There is no margin at the side, and the speed differential is so great, it's frankly terrifying. Look at the KSI locations for cyclists - such a large number are on busy "rural" A and B roads, out of all proportion with the number of cyclists using them.

But each one of those major roads has a network of delightful country lanes enabling you to avoid them if you choose. So no need for segregation or special infrastructure. I have so many choices on how to get to Guildford I rarely ride the same way twice. Ditto going south west down the A29 corridor. Ditto going to Brighton. That said I've ridden both A281 and A29 and A272 (and - how mad am I - A24 Horsham to Worthing in fog) and whilst the experiences were less pleasant than lane-ing it I'd not describe them as terrifying. Certainly not as terrifying as my regular encounter with a double mini roundabout on the A272 in Haywards Heath that I tackle twice every weekday. Cycling in Haywards Heath, where there is zero safety in numbers, and only crazy people ride bikes, is the most terrifying thing I ever do on two wheels. Luckily my workplace is on the outskirts.

My local campaign group has problems convincing people that the new Crawley-Horsham cycle route, on lanes and surfaced tracks, is a worthwhile option as local people prefer to ride straight down the A264 dual carriageway. It's faster, has more favourable gradients, is more direct, and they feel, safer than the lanes, and I admit when I need to get to Crawley in a hurry I go that way, with lights blazing. The leisure cyclists love the new route, the utility cyclists stick with the main road. Me? I take my folder or another bike on the train as I live 100m from Horsham station.

So maybe the issue is not vehicularist vs segregationist but vehicularist vs segregationist vs utility-ist vs leisure-ist?

Me? I'm for a Free Galilee.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
And the A281 isn't fun to ride on unless you're a sad middle-aged man desperately trying to prove something - but, as srw says, it's a heck of an ask to put a lane to even just one side when there's a decent route to the east.

So that's why I ride on it. Dang.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
actually I adore the A29. Sorry. But, again, the A272 is not for me. And the B2139 up to the hill above Arundel isn't good. So I go a different, shorter way.

In towns there's usually plenty of options if you don't fancy the major roads, but, again, it looks as if the major radial roads in London are coming our way.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
actually I adore the A29. Sorry. But, again, the A272 is not for me. And the B2139 up to the hill above Arundel isn't good. So I go a different, shorter way.

In towns there's usually plenty of options if you don't fancy the major roads, but, again, it looks as if the major radial roads in London are coming our way.

Actually in some of the towns I frequent around here you have very little in the way of options. Horsham, Haywards Heath and Chichester all leap to mind, Chi, in fact, is a disaster darling. Crawley is quite good; thanks to a splendid CTC RtR volunteer and an active cycle forum and sympathetic council. Guildford leaves a bit to be desired too.
 

ozzage

Senior Member
Hold on just one moment. How do you get a BIKE LANE without creating a CAR LANE next door to it?

You don't need a road to make bike paths so I assume you're being pedantic about the words I used, but I'm not sure what your point is. Honestly. I didn't say anything about not have car lanes, so what are you on about?
 

ozzage

Senior Member
All who vociferously advocate urbane Dutch and Danish models for us in urban Blightly. Are you going to adopt their model wholesale....? Riding in normal clothes, upright bikes, no more lycra, hardly a drop bar in sight, hipsters on fixed looked at askance, going considerably slower, etc., etc.. No? Thought not.

Yes! No lycra. Fewer road bikes. Normal clothes. That's EXACTLY what I want to see. None of it is necessary unless you're doing very long distances, and people need to realise that the cycling "uniform" just further alienates non-cyclists and makes it seem like an activity for "freaks" not "normal" people. I know you won't agree, but I don't care because I've experienced the other side and from that perspective it all looks so ridiculous here with bright colours and arse in air.

You also might be surprised how fast you get from point to point in NL, due to the direct routes and priority measures.
 

ozzage

Senior Member
Read about Daniel Cadden. That is the natural consequence of separation. I believe that it actually is the law for some or all separate cycle lanes in Holland, although as in everything else I may be wrong.

True that some are mandatory, but in 3 1/2 years I never heard a single complaint about that. There the paths work, and improve the experience so much that people would think you're mad if you then CHOSE to ride on the road.
 

ozzage

Senior Member
You are not picking up the point about creating a car lane though. A road is a road is a road, open to all classes of user. Once you create a separate cycle lane you are implicitly creating a car lane out of the remainder of the road, with the idea that this belongs to car drivers and not to cyclists or pedestrians.

ahh sorry now I understand your point.

Yes that's what I want. Next to major roads. That's segregation. I don't want it mandatory and would actively campaign against that, but to be quietly honest I don't care that much, because I don't care about lycra-clad road bikers who are worried about their speed. They'll keep riding anyway, even if they don't like it. I care far more about the rest population who remain opposed and are silent because currently they don't care.

Not going to be a popular viewpoint on this forum, I'm sure :tongue:.
 
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