left turn on red - Johnson is an arse

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Danny

Legendary Member
Location
York
tdr1nka said:
After spending a lot of time in the USA I used to wonder why we didn't do the same here.
If it is only cyclist who get to do this then all well and good but I'm of the mind that there needs to be a lot of educating drivers and cyclists for this to be workable.
I agree, the turn right on red policy does work well in the US, but I suspect this is party because there are broader streets and pavements in most cities which give better sight lines for drivers and pedestrians.

American drivers are also, on the whole, much more law-abiding - partly because the police actually enforce the traffic laws - and do give way to pedestrians much more than their London counterparts ever do.
 

Danny

Legendary Member
Location
York
jonesy said:
It may be worth exploring exemptions at individual junctions on a case by case basis, e.g. with special signs and road markings, but that is a different thing from a general change in rules at traffic lights.
Agreed. There is a junction in York where the Council has put in a left turn lane which by-passes the red light and this works very well.
 
URGGGGGGGHHHH...............ALIEN HAND SYNDROMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.....................MMMMMUSTTT RESISTTTTTT URGE TTTTOO AGREE WITH DELLLBOYYY

Aiiieeeeeeeeeeeee :biggrin:
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
Looks like Hoon dog is giving the proposal the benefit of his wisdom:

Oral Answers to Questions

Transport

The Secretary of State was asked—


Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): As a heavy-goods driver and a cyclist, I understand all too well the hazard caused to cyclists from the rear wheels of large vehicles, particularly at junctions. Does the Secretary of State think that the proposal from our brilliant Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, to allow cyclists to turn left on red and thus get out of the way before the lights change might improve matters?

Mr. Hoon: I am grateful for that suggestion from the multi-talented Front Bencher. I shall certainly carefully consider the proposal, although there are some concerns about the safety implications of such a relaxation. As one who has lived and worked in the United States, where turning on red lights is routine for motor vehicles, I know that the idea has been considered for motor vehicles generally in the UK. What is important is that we put the safety criteria first—we have to assess whether it can be done safely. If it can, I would certainly take a positive view of it.

http://www.publications.parliament....m090514/debtext/90514-0001.htm#09051460000021
 

dodgy

Guest
Oh god, not TCH, nothing will ever happen, he'll just go on about 'assessing' but nothing will get done or assessed.
 
OP
OP
dellzeqq

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
I read Geoff (Property Magnate) Hoon's answer as a vindication of Johnson's strategy. Johnson has promised left turn on red to motorists. Now consider how many cyclists and pedestrians that's going to take out.
 

theboytaylor

Well-Known Member
Location
Charlton, London
I wrote to Mr Johnson's office about this as I also think it is completely ar5e-headed. The response I received from a "Customer Services Assistant" from a Tfl Dept which is called London Streets (I think) was as follows:

"This is just an idea at the moment and is with the DfT to confirm if it is even possible. It can take years for the DfT to give us their view. If it were possible (and it would require a change in legislation and technical guidance) then Transport for London (TfL) would first look at a trial.

TfL has proposed to operate a trial at carefully selected sites in London to allow cyclists to turn left through a red traffic signal whilst general traffic remains stationary. The purpose of providing such a facility at traffic signals is to reduce the potential for instances where left turning cyclists are struck by other vehicles also turning left. The publicity necessary to accompany such an initiative would also promote motorists' understanding of the vulnerability of cyclists and therefore the need for them to be afforded sufficient space and respect, encouraging responsible behaviour by both drivers and cyclists.

For cyclists to proceed through a traffic signal, whilst general traffic remains stationary, current regulations require cyclists to be separately signalled from other vehicles. This would require separate traffic signals and an associated splitter island which would reduce capacity on the network substantially and introduce significant costs.

The French government has recently authorised trials of cyclists turning right on red at traffic signals in Strasbourg and Bordeaux. TfL acknowledges concerns as to the safety of vulnerable pedestrians, particularly the visually impaired, who would be crossing the road under a green man pedestrian signal potentially in conflict with cyclists turning left on red.

However, TfL is following the trials of these arrangements in France and, dependent on the results of these, would wish to explore with the DfT the potential for trials at appropriate sites in London. Similar practices are standard in other countries: in Germany, where traffic travels on the right, right turns on red are permitted for all vehicles when a specific sign is present.

The Mayor is committed to developing cycling in London and making London's streets safer and feel safer for everyone and not just for cyclists. TfL is working with the police and the boroughs to raise awareness of the dangers of selfish and unlawful driving and riding and to use the enforcement system to complement strategic (such as Share the Road) and locally focused campaigns. There are now around 2000 police and emergency services personnel using bicycles as part of their everyday operations - they set a good example to cyclists and motorists, provide public reassurance as well as being very effective in catching wrongdoers of all kinds."

It's all a bit confused, isn't it? If it's just an idea that Tfl are floating, why's Boris shouting about it. As I think I've read elsewhere on CC Boris is quite happy to float these crappy ideas, knowing that a Central Govt Dept will kick it into the long grass or just reject it completely. At least he looks good saying it, eh? Still, he's such a character, isn't he?
 

Canrider

Guru
It's unfortunate that I grew up in one of the few the only(?) North American jurisdiction where 'right on red' wasn't permitted. It still feels all tingly and illicit when I do it while visiting my parents who now live in such a permissive locality..

Anyways..
1) It's apparently only for cyclists. So yes, another round of 'road tax' style aggro, to wit: You go through red lights (yes, I was turning left)!
2) It encourages people to filter unsafely. Again, this is perhaps something for education, on the level of 'don't take my knowledge and experience and use this as a springboard for doing something spectacularly stupid' (as coined by Sam Tracy).
3) Boris Johnson is a dick. This is tautological, and yet even a dick can do or say something wise or useful.
4) My local MP has claimed to be a cyclist. This will be investigated.
4a) He's on the front bench?!?
 

mistral

Guru
Location
Esher
This is an ill thought out proposal that does not take into account how people actually behave.

London is different to many other towns & cities both here in the UK and overseas. Many of the London junctions are extremely busy, cyclists turning left on red would often be confronted with pedestrians crossing, buses, HGV’s and other traffic bearing down on them from the right.
London drivers can be very aggressive and pushy. Couriers, delivery drivers and HGV’s are often on tight schedules, increasing the propensity for them to disregard other road users. In my experience all London road users (inc. some cyclists) are willing to take more risks than road users in other areas.
If this proposal is adopted cyclists will mistakenly believe they have safe passage to the stop line and will put inexperienced or naive riders in even more danger.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
theboytaylor said:
"This is just an idea at the moment and is with the DfT to confirm if it is even possible. It can take years for the DfT to give us their view. If it were possible (and it would require a change in legislation and technical guidance) then Transport for London (TfL) would first look at a trial.

Let me translate that for you:

"That dunderhead Boris has spouted his mouth off yet again without thinking. There's no way in law by which he can change the traffic regulations for London, and no way on earth we'll let him get any further with this damn-fool idea without looking very hard indeed at the pros and cons, and instituting a trial.

+on+Old+Etonian%2C+but+he%27s+a+very+very+stupid+one.+Don%27t+judge+the+rest+of+us+by+him&size=2.jpg
 

kettle

Senior Member
Location
Ladybank, Fife
In Australia cars and cyclists can often turn left on red light 'when safe to do so' as the sign tell us.
The point is that all can turn left and that there is no need for a cyclist to undertake to get to the front to do so.
I all circumstances cyclists should take up their rightful space on the road. This means that they do not undertake. We know that if you reduce the space you take up other road users will reduce this further.
 

thomas

the tank engine
Location
Woking/Norwich
I'm kind of for it in principle. I reckon I could use the system without injuring myself, causing peds to jump out my way to any other 'nasties'. It does seem to make sense that if it's clear, why not go. As for only cyclists using it, whatever the reasons, it seems to make more sense as we can pull away quicker than cars as well as having a better view at junctions.
 
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