Lambeth Bridge tipper truck fatality

[glenn forger]

A piece by the ECF on the dangers of lorries v buses. http://www.ecf.com/news/cycling-fatalities-much-higher-risk-of-getting-killed-by-a-lorry-than-a-bus-in-london/

Notable, for it's use of @redfalo 's statistical breakdown of accidents in London.

As a result of this lack of communication, the incident in July 2013 where a driver killed 2 cyclists, driving and also working as a mechanic for a haulage company, did not trigger any disciplinary action on the haulage company for their gross failure in management. It should have been no surprise as the haulage company was a resurrection of a previous company run by the same family from the same base, which had been closed down and the original director banned from being in charge of any HGV operations - the new licence specifically required that this man had nothing to do with the operations. I note now that the company altered their operating base, applying less than 2 months after the fatal crash (August 2013), and recently was called in again for a disciplinary hearing - but allowed to continue with conditions applied.

A further example was Denis Putz when the Judge expressed horror that a driver with 20 driving bans and a dreadful record of other convictions still had a Class C licence - on the week of his sentencing another driver for the same company killed a motorist with a similar truck on the M4, also I believe under the influence of drink.

That was a lorry owned by Thames materials, the driver was arrested for being under the influence of drugs but since then..nothing.

 

[Arrowfoot]

I think the cops have some questions to answer too, remember they stopped riders using the bus lane because they said, with bitter irony "it's not safe".

Is there any laws barring cyclists from using bus lanes? I find it ridiculous.

 

[jarlrmai]

There are "bus only" lanes which exclude cyclists.

 

[Tankengine]

2) what about those of us who by neccesity of your ban will have to ride in early or late. do we not matter as much as the peak hour riders ?

Something that seems to be completely overlooked. I guess on the grounds it's less likely to be congested at those times but not sure a lack of congestion will help prevent collisions caused by crap driving or poor vehicle / road design.
Interestingly the recent police "safety drive" at key junctions (ok sure) was also never there in the early hours either, even 6-7 am which is already busy in central. But sure, large vehicles and no police presence for those most likely to be riding in the dark....great plan

 

[redfalo]

A piece by the ECF on the dangers of lorries v buses. http://www.ecf.com/news/cycling-fatalities-much-higher-risk-of-getting-killed-by-a-lorry-than-a-bus-in-london/

Notable, for it's use of @redfalo 's statistical breakdown of accidents in London.

interesting, thanks for the pointer!

 

[Pete Owens]

A piece by the ECF on the dangers of lorries v buses. http://www.ecf.com/news/cycling-fatalities-much-higher-risk-of-getting-killed-by-a-lorry-than-a-bus-in-london/

Notable, for it's use of @redfalo 's statistical breakdown of accidents in London.

What is notable is that a high percentage of cyclists killed by trucks seems to be an indicator of an overall good road safety record. Note the countries quoted with higher or similar levels to the UK (compared to an EU average of 22%) This figure is 43 percent in Belgium, 38 percent in the Netherlands, 33 percent in the UK and 33 percent in Denmark. What is probably behind this is that it is relatively easy to make cars non-lethal by cutting speeds in urban areas - tackling trucks is a harder problem.

Within the UK, central London (which is probably one of the safest places to cycle) has a very high proportion of truck fatalities. It is not that trucks are getting more lethal it is that it is that at low speeds cars are unlikely to kill.

 

[dellzeqq]

It's the drivers, and the way the drivers are managed, and that's down to management and a complete lack of concern on the part of the HSE by those designing the works for off-site safety. I can write risk assessments all day long about working at height, and know that people will read them and act on them. If I write to the Contractor and say 'ensure that those delivering to the site are FORS registered there's blank incomprehension.

 

[Arrowfoot]

It's the drivers, and the way the drivers are managed, and that's down to management and a complete lack of concern on the part of the HSE by those designing the works for off-site safety. I can write risk assessments all day long about working at height, and know that people will read them and act on them. If I write to the Contractor and say 'ensure that those delivering to the site are FORS registered there's blank incomprehension.

Thats stating the obvious. Its not a revelation. No will argue where the liability sits overwhelmingly.

 

[Drago]

Strangely enough, it is sad but true that some cyclists get into trouble as a consequence of their own actions.

 

[totallyfixed]

What is notable is that a high percentage of cyclists killed by trucks seems to be an indicator of an overall good road safety record. Note the countries quoted with higher or similar levels to the UK (compared to an EU average of 22%) This figure is 43 percent in Belgium, 38 percent in the Netherlands, 33 percent in the UK and 33 percent in Denmark. What is probably behind this is that it is relatively easy to make cars non-lethal by cutting speeds in urban areas - tackling trucks is a harder problem.

Within the UK, central London (which is probably one of the safest places to cycle) has a very high proportion of truck fatalities. It is not that trucks are getting more lethal it is that it is that at low speeds cars are unlikely to kill.

I have no idea where you have got these figures from, but I am reasonably sure they do not take into account the number of miles cycled, for instance in the Netherlands compared to the UK when these figures are taken into account the UK suddenly begins to look like a third world country. Irrespective of this, what everyone seems to be missing is the response of the government to these completely unnecessary cycling fatalities. Please take a look at this from the Netherlands, about a third of the way down titled:
Cycling fatalities in blind spot crashes
https://www.swov.nl/rapport/Ss_RA/RA47.pdf
We all share the roads, yet some folk appear to grow horns when they get behind a wheel, it cannot be beyond the wit of man to solve this problem by just for once taking a long hard look at how our neighbours in Europe are dealing with this situation.

 

[glenn forger]

Even the roads minister made that mistake, the old roads minister I should say. He claimed that London was safer than Amsterdam cos we had fewer accidents! Statistical innumeracy.

 

[jefmcg]

Not moving way or dropping back from something that is too big and dangerous even if you have right of way is not an intelligent move. Putting words into someone's mouth is also disingenuous and dishonest. Using profanities in any serious argument shows lack of substance and upbringing.

finally thought I'd get back to this.

The google maps link is my POV during this "incident". I was heading up Hill St, before turning right on to Richmond Bridge. I would have indicated right approaching the roundabout, but then had both hands on my handlebars. This is a busy intersection, with cars commonly coming off the bridge turning right cutting across the mini roundabout to beat a cyclist, and of course the cars opposite may not be aware you are turning so you have to keep an eye on them too. There is also a lot of pedestrians and there are not good facilities for them, so you have to watch out for them stepping out too.

The truck was completely behind me. With all that happening in front of me, I was not thinking about him at all. There is always something behind you on that roundabout.

Apparently, he decided that I had eyes in the back of my head, and tried to overtake me on the roundabout and expected me to keep out of his way. There only way that would be possible would be for him to drive over the painted roundabout. But this was all behind me as I concentrated on what was in front of me.

When he started shouting at me about nearly running me down a few metres down the road, I had literally no idea what he was talking about. I had assumed he had some interaction with a cyclist a while back and somehow thought it was me. Because on the short journey I had just begun, there was no place for such an incident to occur. When I got home, I worked out that he must be talking about.

 

[glenn forger]

Found it


Penning stepped in to quote from a supposed table showing the UK well above the Netherlands in European bike safety rates. He added, not without some smugness: "I think the Netherlands may want to come and see us, to see how we are making sure so few people are getting killed cycling."

Baffled – it's more or less universally known that cycling in the Netherlands is considerably safer than here – I called the DfT press office. The response was amazing. Baker and Penning were quoting casualty rates per 100,000 people. That's right, a statistic which takes no account of the fact that the average Dutch national cycles around 10 times further per year than the average Briton.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2012/may/25/cycling-governed-dimwits

Mike Penning. Idiot.

 

[totallyfixed]

What strikes me about that report is the way that 'blind spot' incidents are described: "Blind spot crashes happen when a truck turns off and fails to notice or is unable to see the cyclist who is positioned immediately beside or in front of the truck." So different from the often victim-blaming approach taken in the UK.

Indeed, speaking as someone who lived in Germany for over 10 years and has cycled extensively in the Netherlands [we have many friends who live there], the attitude to a cycling fatality is dramatically different. A driver is automatically at fault unless it can be proven that the cyclist was acting unlawfully, even then the driver is still liable for 50% damages.
More importantly, and I have said this many times before, everyone in the Netherlands owns / rides a bike so there is automatic empathy between vehicle drivers and cyclists, even where the vehicle has right of way, more often than not the cars would stop and wave us across a junction. This is the real difference.

 

[Arrowfoot]

I have no idea where you have got these figures from, but I am reasonably sure they do not take into account the number of miles cycled, for instance in the Netherlands compared to the UK when these figures are taken into account the UK suddenly begins to look like a third world country. Irrespective of this, what everyone seems to be missing is the response of the government to these completely unnecessary cycling fatalities. Please take a look at this from the Netherlands, about a third of the way down titled:
Cycling fatalities in blind spot crashes
https://www.swov.nl/rapport/Ss_RA/RA47.pdf
We all share the roads, yet some folk appear to grow horns when they get behind a wheel, it cannot be beyond the wit of man to solve this problem by just for once taking a long hard look at how our neighbours in Europe are dealing with this situation.

Thanks, a good and balanced report. I like their long term solution on separating truck and cycling infrastructure.