Lambeth Bridge tipper truck fatality

[Arrowfoot]

I was thinking about your reply to @jefmcg where it doesn't sound as if she was waiting at the lights. And as she was turning right she would be a reasonable way from the pavement.

The point I was making is if you see a HGV too close whether moving or not, best is to move away or fall back even if you have right of way. Very similar to pacing. Sorry if I was not clear or misinterpreted what Jeff said.

ps. I hope the Lambeth Tipper case finally forces a ban for these types of vehicles during peak period. Her stature would be immensely helpful.

 

[subaqua]

coupe of issues with banning

1 ) Define morning peak - 07.00 to 09.30 ? 06.00 to 10.00 defining evening peak gets harder
2) what about those of us who by neccesity of your ban will have to ride in early or late. do we not matter as much as the peak hour riders ?
3) you want to put a defined amount of work into a shorter timespace - whats that going to do for pressures on delivering , and i don't mean tippers .

although i await the " Paris does it" comments .
here is a better suggestion

Properly prosecute offenders and make the punishments harsh to drivers and companies so they don't drive like tw@ts . because they will be prevented from earning.

 

[summerdays]

The point I was making is if you see a HGV too close whether moving or not, best is to move away or fall back even if you have right of way. Very similar to pacing. Sorry if I was not clear or misinterpreted what Jeff said.

ps. I hope the Lambeth Tipper case finally forces a ban for these types of vehicles during peak period. Her stature would be immensely helpful.

You make it sound calm and easy, in a real situation it happens fairly fast.

 

[Arrowfoot]

You make it sound calm and easy, in a real situation it happens fairly fast.

Its never easy. More a miss and a go at times. But in my mind I know if I have the opportunity to pull back or pull away I will. Sometimes you get stuck and you go for it.

I have seen others still attempt when they have the opportunity to pull back and I suspect sometimes it is the feeling that they have right of way which by law they do. I have also seen others who ease behind such vehicles and take primary. I not sure if you are aware but many buses, lorries and even vans actually have a sticker on the left rear asking cyclist not to go to their left inside.

 

[summerdays]

Its never easy. More a miss and a go at times. But in my mind I know if I have the opportunity to pull back or pull away I will. Sometimes you get stuck and you go for it.

I have seen others still attempt when they have the opportunity to pull back and I suspect sometimes it is the feeling that they have right of way which by law they do. I have also seen others who ease behind such vehicles and take primary. I not sure if you are aware but many buses, lorries and even vans actually have a sticker on the left rear asking cyclist not to go to their left inside.

Err... Let's think, I cycle, I post on this forum, I think I might just have seen those stickers hundreds of times so I don't actually notice them even if stuck behind them.

I assume you raised the point because some cyclists go down the left hand side of large vehicles. Yes that may contribute to some fatalities, but the fact is that many more do not and are put into a dangerous position by the lorry manoeuvres not by theirs.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Err... Let's think, I cycle, I post on this forum, I think I might just have seen those stickers hundreds of times so I don't actually notice them even if stuck behind them.

I assume you raised the point because some cyclists go down the left hand side of large vehicles. Yes that may contribute to some fatalities, but the fact is that many more do not and are put into a dangerous position by the lorry manoeuvres not by theirs.

The poor conduct and dangerous manoeuvres by lorry drivers are a given. The intention is to minimise one's risk even if one has right of way. I see the poor conduct of lorry drivers escalating and thus the fatalities.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

The poor conduct and dangerous manoeuvres by lorry drivers are a given. The intention is to minimise one's risk even if one has right of way. I see the poor conduct of lorry drivers escalating and thus the fatalities.

It might be worthwhile thinking about why and how the conduct of lorry drivers is deteriorating. Work conditions, time pressure, traffic delays, road (and cycling infrastructure) design, accountability, safety checking and inadequate driver training might be a starting list. There are no doubt other factors.

While no one is suggesting that cyclists should ride recklessly, you have to remember that 5 tipper-type lorries have already taken the lives of cyclists in London since the start of the year. And it will continue like this until the causes are removed from the streets.

 

[jarlrmai]

That's just it - they shouldn't be. What you're advocating is effectively letting them get away with careless and dangerous behaviour rather than addressing it. That make you part of the problem.

It's victim blaming the same as we see in many other cases, it's the attitude that dangerous driving and vehicles are like an environmental condition we just have to accept and mitigate, and whilst on an individual personal level we as experienced cyclists do this every day it can never be accepted at any level.

I was staying in London recently by Aldgate East, I saw an incredible number of tipper trucks and concrete mixers and the manner in which they were driven, (2 concrete mixers pretty much racing side by side down Commercial Road) was pretty terrifying as a pedestrian let alone a cyclist sharing the road with them

 

[Arrowfoot]

It might be worthwhile thinking about why and how the conduct of lorry drivers is deteriorating. Work conditions, time pressure, traffic delays, road (and cycling infrastructure) design, accountability, safety checking and inadequate driver training might be a starting list. There are no doubt other factors.

While no one is suggesting that cyclists should ride recklessly, you have to remember that 5 tipper-type lorries have already taken the lives of cyclists in London since the start of the year. And it will continue like this until the causes are removed from the streets.

Agree completely. No arguments there. I have no faith in their industry doing anything as time has shown. While we push for punitive and deterrent measures that forces corrective action we also have to make our cyclists aware that keeping to the rules would not reduce the risk. They must be conscious that they would come out second best in any encounter.

 

[glenn forger]

The poor conduct and dangerous manoeuvres by lorry drivers are a given. The intention is to minimise one's risk even if one has right of way. I see the poor conduct of lorry drivers escalating and thus the fatalities.

You've referred to "right of way" three times. There is no such thing. You seem to be spamming this thread with irrelevant nonsense, patronising advice and platitudes.

 

[Arrowfoot]

That's just it - they shouldn't be. What you're advocating is effectively letting them get away with careless and dangerous behaviour rather than addressing it. That make you part of the problem.

I am advocating that we do this in parallel. Force the authorities and their industry to correct their behaviour and make it aware to the cycling community that these guys are not playing by the rules.

 

[Arrowfoot]

That's just it - they shouldn't be. What you're advocating is effectively letting them get away with careless and dangerous behaviour rather than addressing it. That make you part of the problem.

I am advocating that we do this in parallel. Force the authorities and their industry to correct their behaviour and make it aware to the cycling community that these guys are not playing by the rules.

 

[glenn forger]

I was staying in London recently by Aldgate East, I saw an incredible number of tipper trucks and concrete mixers and the manner in which they were driven, (2 concrete mixers pretty much racing side by side down Commercial Road) was pretty terrifying as a pedestrian let alone a cyclist sharing the road with them

I think the cops have some questions to answer too, remember they stopped riders using the bus lane because they said, with bitter irony "it's not safe".

 

[glenn forger]

It’s believed that Alan Neve had previously used the bus lane. “But only a few days ago police had been ticketing cyclists who went into the bus lane, and many had been taken down into the gyratory,” said Casalotti.

http://road.cc/content/news/88851-transport-chiefs-pledge-fix-holborn-junction-wake-alan-neve-death

 

[BalkanExpress]

A piece by the ECF on the dangers of lorries v buses. http://www.ecf.com/news/cycling-fatalities-much-higher-risk-of-getting-killed-by-a-lorry-than-a-bus-in-london/

Notable, for it's use of @redfalo 's statistical breakdown of accidents in London.