Just how bad are drivers, in general?

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I've had plenty of experiences of bad driving - as driver, pedestrian and a cyclist. On Sunday morning I marshalled a cycle race. I thought it would be a fairly peaceful and relaxed affair stood at the side of a road for a few hours.

With what I saw I can safely say, at least based on anecdotal experience, the majority of drivers do not drive safely.
I was stood at a T-junction where one B road intersects with another. The cycle race was proceeding along the road that was "Tee'd off" and turning left into the T junction - so they were just turning left and not giving way. The majority of the motorised traffic was proceeding along the road that is terminated at the T junction - so the drivers were giving way. Then most drivers turned left, continuing along the road that the cyclists were turning off. Or coming in the other direction, and turning right.

This was quite good, or at least should have been, as a good portion of the traffic was not in anyway affected by the cyclists.





If we concentrate first on the drivers in general, the vast majority did not negotiate the junction correctly. Many did not indicate. When the junction was clear, the majority turning right out of it or turning right into it cut the corner. When the junction was busy, many drivers turning right into the junction clipped or mounted the kerb stones on the left hand side. It's not the largest junction, but I wouldn't describe it as particularly tight.

The junction was so busy at times, that there were queues of vehicles forming to turn left out of the junction. This created anxiety and impatience in a sizeable proportion of drivers.

A lot of drivers carried way too much speed through the junction. A lot of drivers were carrying out secondary tasks - including, in one case, map reading.





Onto the interactions between the motorists and the cyclists.

The road that terminated at the Tee-junction, is a steady rise with limited onward visibility. Not somewhere I would deem safe to overtake. Yet, the majority of drivers were content to overtake the cyclists before reaching the brow of the hill. Given that some instances the competitors were really tackling that climb, that would mean they would be overtaking with some speed. In fact, I only saw one driver out of a good good many, patiently wait until cresting the hill.

A good number of drivers on the road that was Tee'd off saw no problem overtaking the cyclists on approach to the junction and then turning left across them. An even higher proportion of drivers proceeding straight on, were happy to overtake on approach to the junction. The worst of these was an Ocado delivery driver, who overtook two other left turning vehicles and a group of cyclists at a time the junction was quite busy. A local dairy farm's tanker driver, did the same and the blocked the junction to try and tell me how dangerous one of the competitors was ...




Given most of this was before 9am on a Sunday morning, I was a bit surprised how few drivers could actually negotiate this junction and/or the cyclists as per the Highway Code. There was a good number of motorcyclists also using the junction throughout the morning - much much better behaviour there.




I felt anecdotally before this that driving standards were falling. Now I'm absolutely sure that this is the case. Is there any substantive evidence of this? I've done some searching and I get lots of hits about drivers eyesight, but nothing that's particularly evidential. KSI statistics have generally improved, vulnerable road users excepted. Compliance with speed limits has alledgedly improve, even though it's thought to only be around 50% drivers in free flowing traffic for 30 mph speed limits. I don't trust the data on motoring FPNs or convictions - various other factors can influence those.
 
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I see things like that a lot round here. People fiddling with satnav, people too deep in conversation to notice other traffic around them, people cutting corners. people being obnoxious and shouting at you even when you never did anything wrong but they still saw you as "getting in their way". Pretty much the same as you experienced with one difference. Being on a popular cycle route it is often cyclists doing all that. On a weekend when the weather is nice it is actually dangerous crossing the road at times. It is not possible to pick a safer place to cross because the footway ends where it ends and starts on the other side. You have to cross there but of a nice weeked you will see cyclists riding without due care and attention.

Sorry for this whataboutery but I feel it is very much part of this modern world that if you see enough of any type of road user you will get similar bad examples.

On a side note, is it better to post such observations on forums of those users to perhaps educate and improve such behaviour than preaching to an echo chamber of your activity. What I mean is you can highlight bad behaviour of cyclists on a cycling forum and perhaps some will learn and improve their behaviour. Is doing the same for motorists going to educate and potentially improve their driving on a cycling site or perhaps you could be brave and post it on a motoring forum?? Basically, are you highlighting your observations to try and improve things or to get approval of your peers for giving another thread to bash others on? I think we all know the issues with some motorists but have you told motorists about those issues?

PS sorry about using the term satnav to mislead you at the beginning of my post. If I had used bike computer or GPS you might have cottoned on quicker.:smile:
 
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PedallingNowhereSlowly

PedallingNowhereSlowly

Senior Member
On a side note, is it better to post such observations on forums of those users to perhaps educate and improve such behaviour than preaching to an echo chamber of your activity. What I mean is you can highlight bad behaviour of cyclists on a cycling forum and perhaps some will learn and improve their behaviour. Is doing the same for motorists going to educate and potentially improve their driving on a cycling site or perhaps you could be brave and post it on a motoring forum?? Basically, are you highlighting your observations to try and improve things or to get approval of your peers for giving another thread to bash others on? I think we all know the issues with some motorists but have you told motorists about those issues?


My post is context to a specific question I have asked.

I felt anecdotally before this that driving standards were falling. Now I'm absolutely sure that this is the case. Is there any substantive evidence of this?

The rest of it is to give context, and also express that the poor driving standards I saw were both during interaction with cyclists and also interactions with other motorists, or indeed when there was no interaction at all.
 
I think under the age of 60 people should have to resit their driving test every 5 years and over 60 every single year. There's some really bad elderly drivers near me and I've seen loads of people on their phones or reading/eating and drinking etc whilst driving.
Worst is when you sit upstairs on a bus and can see all this all the time.
People just do not care about anybody but themselves generally. It is what it is and you plan accordingly.
 

oldwheels

Legendary Member
Location
Isle of Mull
I think under the age of 60 people should have to resit their driving test every 5 years and over 60 every single year. There's some really bad elderly drivers near me and I've seen loads of people on their phones or reading/eating and drinking etc whilst driving.
Worst is when you sit upstairs on a bus and can see all this all the time.
People just do not care about anybody but themselves generally. It is what it is and you plan accordingly.

I disagree with the retesting theory. Most bad drivers I see are young rather than old.
It would be easy to be on ones best behaviour for a test and then revert to previous bad behaviour.
 
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PedallingNowhereSlowly

PedallingNowhereSlowly

Senior Member
I disagree with the retesting theory. Most bad drivers I see are young rather than old.
It would be easy to be on ones best behaviour for a test and then revert to previous bad behaviour.

I have mixed feelings about this. Periodic re-testing - even if it was just theoretical, would be an opportunity to remind drivers of their obligations and ensure at least some degree of familiarity with the Highway Code.

Combined with better enforcement ... heck a driver I've just reported with evidence demonstrating a course of negligent behaviour still only got a 'formal warning letter' ... I wouldn't wager on a cyclist caught RLJing getting a warning or the opportunity to do an awareness course. (I know, it's not quite apples to apples as there is no license to endorse).

Anyway, I was really hoping there was any evidence to support the anecdotal experience ... I really think the status quo needs challenging.

I know one thing we didn't have when I started driving - that's was all of these social media road safety campaigns - often run or funded by safety partnerships. I wonder if anyone has done any research into their effectiveness ... ?
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
Driving a car is like sitting in your armchair at home. Comfortable, warm, quiet, big "entertainment" screen.... This environment can only make you relaxed and less alert.
 

presta

Guru
familiarity with the Highway Code...
...makes little if any difference, they make up their own rules to suit themselves. I spent yesterday afternoon arguing about an incident of the usual kind where a car overtakes a cyclist then cuts into a side road in front of them. 6-8 of the relevant Highway Code rules made no difference at all, the cyclist who hadn't changed speed or direction throughout was at fault for 'undertaking'.
 

cyberknight

As long as I breathe, I attack.
...makes little if any difference, they make up their own rules to suit themselves. I spent yesterday afternoon arguing about an incident of the usual kind where a car overtakes a cyclist then cuts into a side road in front of them. 6-8 of the relevant Highway Code rules made no difference at all, the cyclist who hadn't changed speed or direction throughout was at fault for 'undertaking'.

a study was done by a tv news crew and apparently a lot of the public blamed cyclists for cars hitting other cars and pedestrians even if there wasn't a cyclist involved in the incident .
 

presta

Guru
a study was done by a tv news crew and apparently a lot of the public blamed cyclists for cars hitting other cars and pedestrians even if there wasn't a cyclist involved in the incident .

I recently saw a woman say that the reason that 99% of pedestrian deaths are caused by cars is that the pedestrians are jumping into the road to avoid cyclists.
 

Slick

Guru
I'm not sure the general standard has fallen from my experience, it was always pretty poor. I reckon cars and the environment has changed unrecognisably so in the past 30 years that brings the biggest risk. Too many people in too many cars trying to get somewhere they are not in the quickest time possible in cars that totally insulate the user from any sense of feedback to speed or terrain, all adds up to pretty risky environment. That and the well documented sense of entitlement from so many people, obviously. :banghead:
 
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PedallingNowhereSlowly

PedallingNowhereSlowly

Senior Member
People are constantly being told, from some very vocal quarters, that cyclists are dangerous. We've been 'othered' by the main stream media since the 1930s - no doubt due to speculation on growth in the oil and automotive industries.

Aside from sharing the truth, I am not sure how else you tackle the mainstream media's distortion of reality and the opinions batted around Internet echo chambers based on false information.

There are some quotes from the general public in this video RE: cyclists being responsible for accidents

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_4GZnGl55c&t=139s&pp=ygUTZ2NuIG1vdG9ub3JtYXRpdml0eQ%3D%3D
 
My post is context to a specific question I have asked.



The rest of it is to give context, and also express that the poor driving standards I saw were both during interaction with cyclists and also interactions with other motorists, or indeed when there was no interaction at all.

Sorry, but I got taken off my reply and when I came back I missed the other part of my reply. I think things have got worse but it is not just motorists but cyclists, pedestrians (mombies, crossing without looking poor awareness for various reasons for example) too. It is possibly more society attitudes have changed and less conformity to rules, indiviualism, etc. For example do you remember the old, early moving pictures of people going to factories? Pedestrians, cyclists and even the boss's car all together going to the factory site. Now you would not get that with cyclists and pedestrians indeed certainly not with the car drivers.

BTW I get the argument about cyclists having less potential for harm and statistically they do cause less harm but the societal attitudes behind bad behaviour is still worth considering for all road users. Change such behaviours in all road users you should get to a more cycle safe environment. I've seen better in other countries and do wonder why we do not have that. The them and us attitude is never a good way to get to what other countries have in cycle safety and overall attitudes.
 
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