Jeremy Vine calls for drivers to be banned from overtaking cyclists in cities

[presta]

There's a test centre in town.

The nearest cycle lane is 18 miles away. There is one set of traffic lights but these don't include a right turn against oncoming traffic. The nearest one of those is 25 miles away.
The nearest dual carriageway is 30 miles away, the nearest railway level crossing 35 miles away and the nearest motorway 40 miles away.
There's a lot more than just motorways that new drivers have to work out for themselves.

When I was learning I took the role of my father's chauffeur whenever we went anywhere together, just to maximise my experience. In 1975 I drove us 200 miles each way to Leeds & back for Xmas, which included dual carriageways, big city centres in the rush hour, and snow.

I got experience of doing an emergency stop for real whilst I was learning, when kid on a bike shot out from behind a shop in front of the car.

 

[simongt]

I got experience of doing an emergency stop for real

After I'd passed my test, I did likewise with my dad. That's when I learned about aquaplaning, A VERY scarey experience at over 60mph in a Rover 2000 - !
Fortunately, neither my dad or his pals seemed to notice.

 

[icowden]

I understand that France has or had a system where newly qualified drivers had to display 'P' ( for probationer ) plates for a year after passing their test, regardless of age and were limited to certain speed restrictions.
Seemed a very sensible system.

Seems that way. My daughter passed her test in June and wanted P Plates. I spotted the other day that they hadn't been used for a while. She said that she now scarcely uses them as she has found that other drivers are far more likely to be aggressive / overtake if she has the P plates on.

 

[Brandane]

There's a test centre in town.

The nearest cycle lane is 18 miles away. There is one set of traffic lights but these don't include a right turn against oncoming traffic. The nearest one of those is 25 miles away.
The nearest dual carriageway is 30 miles away, the nearest railway level crossing 35 miles away and the nearest motorway 40 miles away.
There's a lot more than just motorways that new drivers have to work out for themselves.

The Isle of Bute, where I originate from, until very recently had no traffic lights and no roundabouts (it now has 1 mini roundabout and 1 set of traffic lights). It has no dual carriageways and very little traffic. But it is possible to sit a driving test there (a driving examiner from the mainland visits occasionally), and if you can successfully negotiate half an hour of island driving in a Ford Fiesta then you can jump into a Range Rover and head for London.....

In my own personal experience, I was lucky in that I sat my HGV class 1 test on the outskirts of Glasgow, but at 9am on a Saturday morning! There was very little traffic around, and let's face it, that is the biggest hazard you are likely to face on any driving test. I passed (in an artic with an empty trailer) and 2 days later was driving a fully laden artic through all sorts of traffic. My licence, tachograph card, and CPC (certificate of professional competency, ironically) are all still valid (all renewed 3 years ago), but I haven't driven any kind of HGV for 8 years. Technically speaking, I could get behind the wheel of a 44 tonne artic tomorrow and drive it anywhere.

I have mentioned this before, but be very wary of labelling HGV drivers as "professional drivers" who should somehow magically possess super skills. Some do, some don't. They might have just passed their test on Saturday morning and still be very green! Or they might be very occasional HGV drivers who normally work in some unconnected job. For example, driving agencies are desperate to cover shifts in the busy period from September to December. I still get texts from agencies I worked for 10 years ago. But I am not tempted (yet).

 

[Jenkins]

Getting them to stop overtaking on roundabouts around here would be a start. Heading to mum's yesterday and I was going straight on at this roundabout and positioned in the centre of the road when a stereotypical German car squeezed past using the decorative brick area on the right.

 

[Baldy]

The Isle of Bute, where I originate from, until very recently had no traffic lights and no roundabouts (it now has 1 mini roundabout and 1 set of traffic lights). It has no dual carriageways and very little traffic. But it is possible to sit a driving test there (a driving examiner from the mainland visits occasionally), and if you can successfully negotiate half an hour of island driving in a Ford Fiesta then you can jump into a Range Rover and head for London.....

In my own personal experience, I was lucky in that I sat my HGV class 1 test on the outskirts of Glasgow, but at 9am on a Saturday morning! There was very little traffic around, and let's face it, that is the biggest hazard you are likely to face on any driving test. I passed (in an artic with an empty trailer) and 2 days later was driving a fully laden artic through all sorts of traffic. My licence, tachograph card, and CPC (certificate of professional competency, ironically) are all still valid (all renewed 3 years ago), but I haven't driven any kind of HGV for 8 years. Technically speaking, I could get behind the wheel of a 44 tonne artic tomorrow and drive it anywhere.

I have mentioned this before, but be very wary of labelling HGV drivers as "professional drivers" who should somehow magically possess super skills. Some do, some don't. They might have just passed their test on Saturday morning and still be very green! Or they might be very occasional HGV drivers who normally work in some unconnected job. For example, driving agencies are desperate to cover shifts in the busy period from September to December. I still get texts from agencies I worked for 10 years ago. But I am not tempted (yet).

Drove HGV's for 40 odd years, as for tests
Motorbike,
Car,
HGV class III,
Caterpillar tracks,
Bus,
LGV class class I.
Don't think I could stand doing another one. Surrender the HGV part when I retired eighteen months ago, have to say I really don't miss driving. In that time seen some really appalling driving rushing, compliance and arrogance being behind most mistakes. I still have a car but I'm finding I take it out less and less.

 

[Happy_Days]

What, precisely, do you think is omitted from the L-test?

The L-test fails to adequately cover many skills (motorway driving, overtaking on rural roads, how to use the limit point). While I’d hardly expect new drivers to master these things, a basic understanding would be invaluable—even if it was only included in the theory test.

For example, many drivers’ discomfort with being offside is undoubtedly a reason for close passes on rural roads. It would be helpful to cover some safe overtaking basics so new drivers can cope with cyclists, tractors, etc. Otherwise, they’re left to make it up as they go along!

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

A friend I was at school with became an engineer
He started working as an engineer in London Transport Bus section (he like buses)
He took up an offer when the management were trying to make managers more "in touch" with the workers - as a result he spent 3 months driving London buses around London - including New Year's Eve
he ended up as the Chief Engineer for a local bus company after several year working for other companies

As a result of all this he needed to be able to test drive proper buses and so took - and passed his bus driver test
As a result of the London bits it was the full blown thingy and not just the Test Drive with no passengers version

This required him to take a re-test every few years and do a certain number of hours - not sure if that was legal requirement of the company though

Anyway - after a while he left and became a Lecturer at a University in buses - well I think it was Integrated Transport but whatever - he seemed to do well - meeting with foreign government officials and all that

anyway - by this time the rules had changed and even though he was no longer working on buses he could keep his license
which was handy because it meant he could drive classic buses - which are apparently a thing - around and take people of tours in them

and no longer needed to take a re-test

which seems rather worrying to me - not with him he would never crash the bus and risk damaging it and risk hurting people - but that fact the other less careful and sensible people could do the same after many years away from driving does not seem sensible!!

 

[Bristolian]

The L-test fails to adequately cover many skills (motorway driving, overtaking on rural roads, how to use the limit point). While I’d hardly expect new drivers to master these things, a basic understanding would be invaluable—even if it was only included in the theory test.

For example, many drivers’ discomfort with being offside is undoubtedly a reason for close passes on rural roads. It would be helpful to cover some safe overtaking basics so new drivers can cope with cyclists, tractors, etc. Otherwise, they’re left to make it up as they go along!

I take your points, although I think limit point analysis would be a bit of a stretch for new drivers - it's difficult enough to get experienced drivers to understand and apply it, in my experience.

What is included in each L-test is dependent on the types of roads that are available within easy reach of the test centre and the traffic conditions at the time of the test.

Motorway driving can be taught to learners provided it is done by a suitably trained ADI but most learners can't afford/won't pay the fee. There were plans to add it to the L-test but DfT wouldn't pay the additional premium to insure their examiners. I'm told it was pretty expensive. I learned to drive a car in Germany so was taught Autobahn driving and it was part of the test (1975).

 

[presta]

After I'd passed my test, I did likewise with my dad. That's when I learned about aquaplaning, A VERY scarey experience at over 60mph in a Rover 2000 - !
Fortunately, neither my dad or his pals seemed to notice.

Driving down the A12 one day in torrential rain I started getting wheelspin at 70mph as the tyres aquaplaned. I eased off the throttle very gently, and continued at a safer pace.

 

[Psamathe]

Any change to rules about cyclists being overtaken would mean changes to law and thus I assume changed to Highway Code. The article prompting this thread and Vine's proposal is from Aug 2023. Highway Code was last updated 2022(?) and Highway Code updates are infrequent (given the work involved, getting changes out to road users, etc.).

So calling for such a change the year after a Highways Code update is just daft. Time to have called for such a change would have been during the consultation before the Highway Code update.

If Vine really wanted a change he'd have called for it earlier and cynic in me suspects his real motivation is "click bait" and PR. I would not be surprised if me was not an avid Social Media poster seeking "Followers" and to get/keep followers you need content ...

Ian

 

[rivers]

I learned to drive in Massachusetts. My test was about 15 minutes long with a state trooper. But what I had to do to even take my test was pretty thorough.
To get my permit, I had to pass my theory test. Then I had to take a theory course (could have been done before I got my permit, but I did an intensive). The course was 2 weeks (5 days/wk) 3 hours/day. I also had to do at least 24 hours with an instructor (12 hours driving, 12 hours observing), and complete at least another 50 with a parent or guardian.
When I passed my test, I had what was classed as a "junior operators license". For the first 6 months, i could only drive my family around (you couldn't be pulled over for suspicion of driving around friends, you had to be doing something wrong), and I couldn't drive between the hours of midnight and 5am until I was 18.
The reason for the restrictions was due to a high amount of accidents involving young people between those hours as well as distraction in new drivers. When these laws were introduced accidents involving young people dropped dramatically.
The UK had a much longer test, but the requirements and restrictions were much less.

 

[classic33]

Any change to rules about cyclists being overtaken would mean changes to law and thus I assume changed to Highway Code. The article prompting this thread and Vine's proposal is from Aug 2023. Highway Code was last updated 2022(?) and Highway Code updates are infrequent (given the work involved, getting changes out to road users, etc.).

So calling for such a change the year after a Highways Code update is just daft. Time to have called for such a change would have been during the consultation before the Highway Code update.

If Vine really wanted a change he'd have called for it earlier and cynic in me suspects his real motivation is "click bait" and PR. I would not be surprised if me was not an avid Social Media poster seeking "Followers" and to get/keep followers you need content ...

Ian

Last updates showing as September 2023, after this thread was started.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/updates

 

[Gwylan]

I learned to drive in Massachusetts. My test was about 15 minutes long with a state trooper. But what I had to do to even take my test was pretty thorough.
To get my permit, I had to pass my theory test. Then I had to take a theory course (could have been done before I got my permit, but I did an intensive). The course was 2 weeks (5 days/wk) 3 hours/day. I also had to do at least 24 hours with an instructor (12 hours driving, 12 hours observing), and complete at least another 50 with a parent or guardian.
When I passed my test, I had what was classed as a "junior operators license". For the first 6 months, i could only drive my family around (you couldn't be pulled over for suspicion of driving around friends, you had to be doing something wrong), and I couldn't drive between the hours of midnight and 5am until I was 18.
The reason for the restrictions was due to a high amount of accidents involving young people between those hours as well as distraction in new drivers. When these laws were introduced accidents involving young people dropped dramatically.
The UK had a much longer test, but the requirements and restrictions were much less.

About 1990 I had to take a test in Florida. That explained why the roads are so wide and the cars so padded.

 

[Psamathe]

Last updates showing as September 2023, after this thread was started.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/updates

Sorry. I was basing my dates on the Stationary Office (TSO, the official publisher and the distributor for legislation, etc.) from whom if you order a copy today you'll get the 2022 version.

Ian