Independent front page story on cycle deaths...

[Chilternrides]

The article makes a number of demands in its summing up, but I find it curious that nearly all of the deaths/serious injuries could have been prevented if the riders had stayed well away from the larger vehicles in the first place. Just what is it about many cyclists that makes them think that they are immortal? I agree that many drivers of larger vehicles have skills that leave something to be desired, but it is a difficult task to drive a big vehicle in London, and a healthy dose of fear on the part of cyclists would not go amiss.

BINGO! Not that I'm short on sympathy for those on the receiving end, far from it; I fear for a lot of people daily when I see the way they behave around vehicles (and not necessarily just large vehicles).

I have held HGV/LGV licence since 1989, and the view is fantastic from some aspects, but limited from others. Please remember that folks! Simple guideline - if you can see the driver in his own mirror, he can see you (if he's looking of course).

Because we have almost 360 deg. vision available to us on our bikes, perhaps we sometimes forget that other road users do not; let's not hang people simply because of the type of vehicle they are driving.

The manner in which they may be driving it is a whole different matter, but we all have a hefty responsibility for our own safety when on the roads, as well as having to trust in those around us to do the same.

Shared responsibilities is what it's all about.

 

[downfader]

The article makes a number of demands in its summing up, but I find it curious that nearly all of the deaths/serious injuries could have been prevented if the riders had stayed well away from the larger vehicles in the first place. Just what is it about many cyclists that makes them think that they are immortal? I agree that many drivers of larger vehicles have skills that leave something to be desired, but it is a difficult task to drive a big vehicle in London, and a healthy dose of fear on the part of cyclists would not go amiss.

It isnt exactly happening like that. I read the reports on several on those cyclists killed in London, one was overtaken on a junction, another was just driven over from behind. Some have been caught out by railings as they were overtaken and hooked. I dont have the figures but have been told only a few made the mistake of filtering when and where they shouldnt.

 

[ComedyPilot]

The opening line p*sses me off:

'Clamour from flood of avoidable road deaths to be stemmed'

clamour -

1. a loud persistent outcry, as from a large number of people
2. a vehement expression of collective feeling or outrage

Does this mean people are starting to take notice of the crap driving standards only now a seemingly 'unacceptable' amount of people are being murdered killed?

Please don't kill people with your cars, we can't stand the bleating and clamouring of their grieving friends and relatives.

 

[Jezston]

BINGO! Not that I'm short on sympathy for those on the receiving end, far from it; I fear for a lot of people daily when I see the way they behave around vehicles (and not necessarily just large vehicles).

I have held HGV/LGV licence since 1989, and the view is fantastic from some aspects, but limited from others. Please remember that folks! Simple guideline - if you can see the driver in his own mirror, he can see you (if he's looking of course).

Because we have almost 360 deg. vision available to us on our bikes, perhaps we sometimes forget that other road users do not; let's not hang people simply because of the type of vehicle they are driving.

The manner in which they may be driving it is a whole different matter, but we all have a hefty responsibility for our own safety when on the roads, as well as having to trust in those around us to do the same.

Shared responsibilities is what it's all about.

Do you not agree we should insist that LGV drivers have the full gamut of modern mirrors so that they can actually see what's going around them?

Remember it's not just cyclists riding up the inside that are getting killed by lorry drivers who apparently didn't see them - it's cyclists sitting in ASZs in front of them, and cyclists besides them after the lorry pulled up besides them, and pedestrians crossing the road.

A vehicle that gives the driver such poor visibility which is directly resulting in people being killed should not be allowed in built up areas.

 

[downfader]

Frustrations... Disquss wont let me login and comment on there. Might email the paper though.

 

[Chilternrides]

Do you not agree we should insist that LGV drivers have the full gamut of modern mirrors so that they can actually see what's going around them?

Remember it's not just cyclists riding up the inside that are getting killed by lorry drivers who apparently didn't see them - it's cyclists sitting in ASZs in front of them, and cyclists besides them after the lorry pulled up besides them, and pedestrians crossing the road.

A vehicle that gives the driver such poor visibility which is directly resulting in people being killed should not be allowed in built up areas.

I totally agree that as much all round visibility as can be attained is a good thing, but it doesn't absolve us from looking out for ourselves too, that's my point.
On my daily commute I see many cyclists squeezing into risky spaces particularly at junctions (on the inside of traffic queues, one foot on the kerb, scooting along bent sideways at the waist because there simply isn't room to get past the bendy bus or lorry any other way for example) - it makes me shudder.

I just don't think it's particularly helpful to keep apportioning blame without looking at what we can reasonably do to avoid getting ourselves into unnecessarily perilous situations too.

 

[jmaccyd]

I totally agree that as much all round visibility as can be attained is a good thing, but it doesn't absolve us from looking out for ourselves too, that's my point.
On my daily commute I see many cyclists squeezing into risky spaces particularly at junctions (on the inside of traffic queues, one foot on the kerb, scooting along bent sideways at the waist because there simply isn't room to get past the bendy bus or lorry any other way for example) - it makes me shudder.

Makes me shudder too. I have never driven a lorry but some lorry drivers have described the problem that with the addition of more mirrors you create a sort of 'painting the Forth Bridge syndrome' By the time you have checked all your mirrors, its time to check them all again. They do have to drive them looking out of the front sometime as well as check instruments. I don't know what the answer is because these deaths are tragic and deeply shocking but it probably involves multiple actions by the lorry drivers, haulage industry, cyclists themselves as well as the people who design and build junctions

 

[xpc316e]

I take it you must have unfettered access to the crime scene investigation files held by the police? I'd also hazard that you've consulted the coroners' reports into the deaths of the cyclists concerned - as this is the only way you could make such a sweeping statement (unless, of course, you're regurgitating titbits you've read in the press and are merely drawing your own jaundiced conclusions from limited source material).

I no longer have the unfettered access to Fatal RTA files that I used to have as a serving Metropolitan Police Traffic Officer who was qualified to investigate fatal crashes. My knowledge of collisions has been gained by attending and reporting thousands of them and I have been accepted as an expert witness on driving matters in court. Having retired from the Police, I now work as a Road Safety Officer but I do maintain contact with serving Collision Investigators, so I often get snippets of info that the general public don't receive. I also hold a LGV C+E licence (and have earnt my living with it), so I write with a modicum of knowledge. I try hard to pass on the benefit of my experiences as a car driver, motorcyclist, truck driver and cyclist because I have seen at first hand the carnage that can be caused by the drivers of larger vehicles. You will not catch me getting any closer to one than I have to, and I cannot understand why anybody else would.

 

[downfader]

I no longer have the unfettered access to Fatal RTA files that I used to have as a serving Metropolitan Police Traffic Officer who was qualified to investigate fatal crashes. My knowledge of collisions has been gained by attending and reporting thousands of them and I have been accepted as an expert witness on driving matters in court. Having retired from the Police, I now work as a Road Safety Officer but I do maintain contact with serving Collision Investigators, so I often get snippets of info that the general public don't receive. I also hold a LGV C+E licence (and have earnt my living with it), so I write with a modicum of knowledge. I try hard to pass on the benefit of my experiences as a car driver, motorcyclist, truck driver and cyclist because I have seen at first hand the carnage that can be caused by the drivers of larger vehicles. You will not catch me getting any closer to one than I have to, and I cannot understand why anybody else would.

You appear to be only seeing a localised picture. As I said earlier its more complicated than that.

Of those that do put themselves at risk.. they do so because of ignorance and lack of empathy towards the other party. I would doubt very much that its malicious or deliberate.

 

[Origamist]

I no longer have the unfettered access to Fatal RTA files that I used to have as a serving Metropolitan Police Traffic Officer who was qualified to investigate fatal crashes. My knowledge of collisions has been gained by attending and reporting thousands of them and I have been accepted as an expert witness on driving matters in court. Having retired from the Police, I now work as a Road Safety Officer but I do maintain contact with serving Collision Investigators, so I often get snippets of info that the general public don't receive. I also hold a LGV C+E licence (and have earnt my living with it), so I write with a modicum of knowledge. I try hard to pass on the benefit of my experiences as a car driver, motorcyclist, truck driver and cyclist because I have seen at first hand the carnage that can be caused by the drivers of larger vehicles. You will not catch me getting any closer to one than I have to, and I cannot understand why anybody else would.

Then please explain how "nearly all of the deaths/serious injuries could have been prevented if the riders had stayed well away from the larger vehicles in the first place." You must have privileged information relating to the cyclists listed in the Independent article and presumably must know what lead up to the collision and the critical combination of circumstances in each case etc Please enlighten us, as I'm sure some of the families would be interested in your expert opinion as I know the facts in a number of the cases listed are not clear or could not be established with any certainty.

 

[xpc316e]

You appear to be only seeing a localised picture. As I said earlier its more complicated than that.

Of those that do put themselves at risk.. they do so because of ignorance and lack of empathy towards the other party. I would doubt very much that its malicious or deliberate.

I never wanted to give the impression that I consider the actions of some riders to be malicious; I agree that their riding is caused by lack of empathy & ignorance. What amazes me is that someone can ride down the inside of a stationary bendy bus that is about to move off and turn left (as seen on one of Origamist's video clips) - how can they be unaware of the deaths of other riders in similar circumstances? I honestly wish that I could gain a genuine insight into what road users actually think about as they put their lives at considerable risk.

 

[summerdays]

Whilst I agree that cyclists need to learn not to put themselves in positions of danger, I equally know that the cyclist is not to blame for all those incidents or close calls. I have been left hooked by vehicles causing me to brake hard and witnessed others also on the receiving end, and had some close pull in's from lorries who have failed to leave me enough space before pulling back in after overtaking me. I have no idea whether the driver in those instances has even realised that they came close to hitting a cyclist.

I meet multiple lorries every day when I'm cycling from bin lorries to construction ones (the majority) and the vast majority of those are being driven in a responsible manner - but equally I've ended up getting into situations (of the lorry driver's creation) where I've had to take evasive action or hold up traffic rather than put myself (and often my son) in danger.

 

[xpc316e]

Then please explain how "nearly all of the deaths/serious injuries could have been prevented if the riders had stayed well away from the larger vehicles in the first place." You must have privileged information relating to the cyclists listed in the Independent article and presumably must know what lead up to the collision and the critical combination of circumstances in each case etc Please enlighten us, as I'm sure some of the families would be interested in your expert opinion as I know the facts in a number of the cases listed are not clear or could not be established with any certainty.

I spend a great deal of my time at work trying to educate road users in how to stay alive. I emphasise that apportioning blame is for insurance companies; what one needs to do is take all steps to minimise one's own risk, whether one is in the right, or not. I also give people my simple definition of a collision; it is 'two, or more, road users trying to use the same piece of road at the same time.' Therefore, if cyclists choose not to get close to other vehicles, whether or not they are legally entitled to do so, they will minimise the threat of being in a collision with them. As an example, had you and the rider behind you decided not to undertake the learner rider on a scooter who was stopping for an amber light (as we see in one of your video clips) there would not have been a 'crash'.

Of course, I do not know of the individual circumstances of each of the deaths and my sympathy goes out to friends & relatives, but I don't see that as a reason not to make a valid point. I very much doubt that you have an intimate knowledge of these deaths, but you feel able to comment.

 

[Origamist]

I spend a great deal of my time at work trying to educate road users in how to stay alive. I emphasise that apportioning blame is for insurance companies; what one needs to do is take all steps to minimise one's own risk, whether one is in the right, or not. I also give people my simple definition of a collision; it is 'two, or more, road users trying to use the same piece of road at the same time.' Therefore, if cyclists choose not to get close to other vehicles, whether or not they are legally entitled to do so, they will minimise the threat of being in a collision with them. As an example, had you and the rider behind you decided not to undertake the learner rider on a scooter who was stopping for an amber light (as we see in one of your video clips) there would not have been a 'crash'.

Of course, I do not know of the individual circumstances of each of the deaths and my sympathy goes out to friends & relatives, but I don't see that as a reason not to make a valid point. I very much doubt that you have an intimate knowledge of these deaths, but you feel able to comment.

Then why are you generalising about specific cases when you do not know if they could have been prevented if the cyclist had stayed away from the larger vehicle in the first place? Can you not see how this detracts from what is sound advice about giving larger vehicles space and being cautious around them?

I attended the inquest of one of the cyclist who died. However, I have not, and will not, make the same sweeping generalisations that you have on this thread.

I'm also surprised given your background that you would speculate on what could have prevented these deaths without knowing the detail, causal factors etc.

PS On the vid you allude to, undertaking the scooter rider was the only option given my speed as I had a cyclist on my right shoulder. Still poor cycling and hazard perception by me, though.

 

[PK99]

but it is a difficult task to drive a big vehicle in London, and a healthy dose of fear on the part of cyclists would not go amiss.

I witnessed a near death incident a little while ago.

Kingston rd, SW19, tram crossing.
traffic stopped.
queue with furniture van at front indicating left.

Early 20's female cyclist, filters up the outside.
Crosses the line of traffic immediately behind van
Travels up the inside on the van in (?) 30 cm gap, scooting left foot on kerb.
Lights change, van sets off.
Cyclist attempts to start and wobbles along side the middle of the van.

I was on the pavement behind the incident and was on the edge of running up and dragging her off the bike onto the pavement.

It was VERY close