Inconsistencies or plot holes in films

[Profpointy]

One thing I quite like about Doctor Who is that, historically at least, they haven't worried much, if at all, about consistency, never mind retcon'ing. We have (at least) 3 quite different origin stories for Cybermen, and two or maybe 3 different destructions of Atlantis. In the case of Atlantis, amazingly, the two different lots of space aliens and their respective Doctors never meet!

It also makes it legit to quietly ignore the dodgy messianic origin story for the Doctor in Chib's last season if they want to

 

[winjim]

One thing I quite like about Doctor Who is that, historically at least, they haven't worried much, if at all, about consistency, never mind retcon'ing. We have (at least) 3 quite different origin stories for Cybermen, and two or maybe 3 different destructions of Atlantis. In the case of Atlantis, amazingly, the two different lots of space aliens and their respective Doctors never meet!

It also makes it legit to quietly ignore the dodgy messianic origin story for the Doctor in Chib's last season if they want to

Red Dwarf fans got around the inconsistencies, not that the writers ever cared, by deciding that each series is set in a parallel universe.

The writers simply said that they weren't bothered and never intended anyone to take it seriously.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

If the shortest distance from, say Bristol to London, is 120 miles, saying something similar would be ' I did the Bristol to London run in less that 120 miles'.

Ah, but that is the shortest moving in 4D spacetime. What if there is a wormhole located in the London sewers that traverse dimensions 5 to 8 and is only 2 metres before you pop back out in your 4D spacetime in Bristol?

 

[captain nemo1701]

The reason Vader didn't mention that Tatooine was his home planet was because it wasn't.

The reason OB1 didn't tell Luke that Vader was his father is because he wasn't.

The reason that Luke and Leia could kiss is because they were not siblings.

That's not fleshing out the narrative, that's changing key aspects of the characters as they were understood and written by the creators.

Vader - when Anakin - was born on Tatooine, so its technically his home world by birth.

Ben told a porky about Vader killing Anakin to protect Luke. He fesses up in ESB that Anakin 'died' when he transformed into Vader. So he's still Luke's father. Its one of the biggest twists in film history.

Luke & Leia are siblings, its established in ROTJ. Luke even says his sister is strong with the force. She then tells a bemused Solo that Luke is her brother so its okay for them to have a relationship.

Are we talking about the same movies here?. This is the story as revealed in the films I went to see in the cinema.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Red Dwarf fans got around the inconsistencies, not that the writers ever cared, by deciding that each series is set in a parallel universe.

The writers simply said that they weren't bothered and never intended anyone to take it seriously.

The fans decided each series is set in another universe?. Do fans write shows now?. I don't recall that, just the one where the alternate Rimmer pops up with the gag line 'Smoke me a kipper & I'll be back for breakfast'. Whilst the show did feature time travel & wormholes (the classic 'Backwards' episode), its mainly set in our universe just 3 million years into the future. Rimmer kicks Death in the crotch at the end of one series while the crew escape RD destruction by leaping into a parallel universe but this wasn't really followed up. The (very dull) specials that were made later which saw Starbug driving around the Coronation Street set didn't deal with the cliff-hanger ending at all. So I take those episodes as being set in the 'prime' (our) universe.

 

[winjim]

Vader - when Anakin - was born on Tatooine, so its technically his home world by birth.

Ben told a porky about Vader killing Anakin to protect Luke. He fesses up in ESB that Anakin 'died' when he transformed into Vader. So he's still Luke's father. Its one of the biggest twists in film history.

Luke & Leia are siblings, its established in ROTJ. Luke even says his sister is strong with the force. She then tells a bemused Solo that Luke is her brother so its okay for them to have a relationship.

Are we talking about the same movies here?. This is the story as revealed in the films I went to see in the cinema.

You're talking about events and characters which are in later films. All that stuff was not the case in the original Star Wars film (Ep IV, ANH, whatever). It's not that it was all there and only revealed later. It's not that OB1 tells a white lie and Luke merely doesn't know that Vader isn't his father. Vader isn't his father. Likewise it's not the case that Luke and Leia don't know that they are siblings. They are not siblings.

Episodes V and VI (ESB, ROTJ) retcon episode IV (SW / ANH)

 

[captain nemo1701]

You're talking about events and characters which are in later films. All that stuff was not the case in the original Star Wars film (Ep IV, ANH, whatever). It's not that it was all there and only revealed later. It's not that OB1 tells a white lie and Luke merely doesn't know that Vader isn't his father. Vader isn't his father. Likewise it's not the case that Luke and Leia don't know that they are siblings. They are not siblings.

Episodes V and VI (ESB, ROTJ) retcon episode IV (SW / ANH)

I'm talking about events in the 3 original movies I saw in 1978, 1981 & 1983, is there a parallel universe you're living in with three different movies?. I distinctly recall 'I am your father' in TESB, 'He's my brother' in ROTJ etc. I could go and find Youtube links to these scenes.....

BTW, Douglas Adams was notorious for retconning. He altered the end of Ep 6 of HHG to include the rock band 'Disaster Area' (based on Pink Floyd).
Series 2 - Ford & Arthur are rescued from prehistoric Earth by Zaphod who survived the Total Perspective Vortex. But....

in the books series 2 is ignored and our heroes escape on a sofa that just pops out of a wormhole. Pity, as series 2 was very funny plus you get to learn the ultimate swearword....Belgium .

as for that movie....oh dear, DA just couldn't stop fiddling with it.

 

[winjim]

I'm talking about events in the 3 original movies I saw in 1978, 1981 & 1983, is there a parallel universe you're living in with three different movies?. I distinctly recall 'I am your father' in TESB, 'He's my brother' in ROTJ etc. I could go and find Youtube links to these scenes.....

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK AND RETURN OF THE JEDI RETCONNED STAR WARS / A NEW HOPE

I'm so sorry I can't be any clearer than that.

 

[figbat]

You're talking about events and characters which are in later films. All that stuff was not the case in the original Star Wars film (Ep IV, ANH, whatever). It's not that it was all there and only revealed later. It's not that OB1 tells a white lie and Luke merely doesn't know that Vader isn't his father. Vader isn't his father. Likewise it's not the case that Luke and Leia don't know that they are siblings. They are not siblings.

Episodes V and VI (ESB, ROTJ) retcon episode IV (SW / ANH)

There’s nothing in Ep 4 ANH that precludes the later revelations either. The first film was released as Episode 4 as a deliberate plan for a back-story. It’s about interpretation - if you take all dialogue in Episode 4 at face value then the later revelations could be considered as ‘retconning’, but there is enough ambiguity (to me) for the reveals to fit the narrative.

 

[winjim]

There’s nothing in Ep 4 ANH that precludes the later revelations either. The first film was released as Episode 4 as a deliberate plan for a back-story. It’s about interpretation - if you take all dialogue in Episode 4 at face value then the later revelations could be considered as ‘retconning’, but there is enough ambiguity (to me) for the reveals to fit the narrative.

You can crowbar it in although it makes the sexual tension between Luke and Leia pretty disgusting.

But.

What I'm saying specifically is that in the minds of the creators when they were coming up with the story, developing the characters and all through the making of the first film, those characters were not related.

Vader wasn't even Luke's father in the initial script for the Empire Strikes Back, and Leia was clearly not Luke's sister when they kissed on Hoth.

This is not my opinion or my interpretation, it's well established that the characters and storyline were rewritten.

IIRC the original plan was for nine films which would have required less retconning to condense the story but they had to cut it short. Willing to be corrected on that point though.

 

[Dogtrousers]

I saw the original Star Wars at the pictures when it came out but I've not seen any of the others. Reading this I'm quite glad as it all sounds rather intellectually stressful.

 

[matticus]

BTW, Douglas Adams was notorious for retconning. He altered the end of Ep 6 of HHG to include the rock band 'Disaster Area' (based on Pink Floyd).
Series 2 - Ford & Arthur are rescued from prehistoric Earth by Zaphod who survived the Total Perspective Vortex. But....

Dear old Douglas's untimely death mean that he probably never had to hear the awful word "retconning" used to describe his work!
It seems a strange label in the case of H2G2 - TV shows (and then movies) are such a different medium that it makes sense to change things as part of the adaptation. (especially when Version 1 was written upto and during the actual recording).I also happen to think that the huge deletion you mention is entirely appropriate in DNA's chaotic universe. Things change because they are fun!

in the books series 2 is ignored and our heroes escape on a sofa that just pops out of a wormhole. Pity, as series 2 was very funny plus you get to learn the ultimate swearword....Belgium .

Yes, I agree, S2 had a lot of good stuff - but it isn't lost, the radio shows are still there to enjoy [DId the very very delayed plane make it into the other versions?? that's one of my favourite ideas!]
But adding the wormhole/sofa incident created one of the best gags:
- Eddies in the space-time continuum ... ...<blah blah> ...
- Eddy's you say? And that's his sofa, is it?

OK, you lot can get back to your Star Wars geekery now ... :P

 

[captain nemo1701]

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK AND RETURN OF THE JEDI RETCONNED STAR WARS / A NEW HOPE

I'm so sorry I can't be any clearer than that.

You're saying Vader isn't Luke's father?. So that scene in ESB I saw where Luke gets his hand cut off & Vader reveals he's his dad, wasn't true?. And in ROTJ, all that business of Luke saving his dad at the end, taking his helmet off so 'I can look at you with my own eyes', was all complete tosh?. And Leia saying to Han, 'He's my brother', was incorrect because they're not siblings. And the two babies spirited away at the end of ROTS weren't really Luke/Leia?.

I'm sorry, but Anakin = Vader, he was corrupted by the dark side of the force. He may call himself Vader, but physically he'd still be Luke's father. How can you say he's not when its the same person, just a different title?.

And why is Leia under the impression that she's Luke's sister?. Why did Luke say the force is strong in his family and then when Leia puts it together, he says 'yes, its you' ??. Why did she say to Solo Luke is her brother?.

If they're not siblings, I think they'd know!.

I also can't make it clearer than that. The films I saw established that its really all about the Skywalker family. Luke & Leia are brother/sister, Vader is their father, corrupted by the dark side of the force but who managed to redeem himself at the end of Jedi.

The prequels set it all up illustrating Anakin's descent into evil.

From Wikipedia:

ESB:
Luke arrives and engages Vader in a lightsaber duel over the city's central air shaft. Vader overwhelms Luke, severing his right hand and separating him from his lightsaber. He urges Luke to embrace the dark side and help him destroy his master, the Emperor, so they may rule the galaxy together. Luke refuses, citing Obi-Wan's claim that Vader killed his father, prompting Vader to reveal that he is Luke's father. Desperate, Luke drops into the air shaft and is ejected beneath the floating city...

ROTJ:
The Alliance learns that the Empire has been constructing a second Death Star under the supervision of the Emperor. The station is protected by an energy shield on the forest moon of Endor. To destroy its generator, Han leads a strike team which includes Luke, Leia and Chewbacca. Using a stolen Imperial shuttle to arrive undetected, the team encounters a tribe of Ewoks, gaining their trust after an initial conflict. Later, Luke tells Leia that she is his sister and Vader is their father. Surrendering to Imperial troops, he is brought before Vader, and fails to convince him to reject the dark side of the Force.

The biggest reveal in cinema history....is wrong?.

I fail to see how you can say he's not Luke's father.....so who is?.

 

[winjim]

You're saying Vader isn't Luke's father?. So that scene in ESB I saw where Luke gets his hand cut off & Vader reveals he's his dad, wasn't true?. And in ROTJ, all that business of Luke saving his dad at the end, taking his helmet off so 'I can look at you with my own eyes', was all complete tosh?. And Leia saying to Han, 'He's my brother', was incorrect because they're not siblings. And the two babies spirited away at the end of ROTS weren't really Luke/Leia?.

I'm sorry, but Anakin = Vader, he was corrupted by the dark side of the force. He may call himself Vader, but physically he'd still be Luke's father. How can you say he's not when its the same person, just a different title?.

And why is Leia under the impression that she's Luke's sister?. Why did Luke say the force is strong in his family and then when Leia puts it together, he says 'yes, its you' ??. Why did she say to Solo Luke is her brother?.

If they're not siblings, I think they'd know!.

I also can't make it clearer than that. The films I saw established that its really all about the Skywalker family. Luke & Leia are brother/sister, Vader is their father, corrupted by the dark side of the force but who managed to redeem himself at the end of Jedi.

The prequels set it all up illustrating Anakin's descent into evil.

From Wikipedia:

ESB:
Luke arrives and engages Vader in a lightsaber duel over the city's central air shaft. Vader overwhelms Luke, severing his right hand and separating him from his lightsaber. He urges Luke to embrace the dark side and help him destroy his master, the Emperor, so they may rule the galaxy together. Luke refuses, citing Obi-Wan's claim that Vader killed his father, prompting Vader to reveal that he is Luke's father. Desperate, Luke drops into the air shaft and is ejected beneath the floating city...

ROTJ:
The Alliance learns that the Empire has been constructing a second Death Star under the supervision of the Emperor. The station is protected by an energy shield on the forest moon of Endor. To destroy its generator, Han leads a strike team which includes Luke, Leia and Chewbacca. Using a stolen Imperial shuttle to arrive undetected, the team encounters a tribe of Ewoks, gaining their trust after an initial conflict. Later, Luke tells Leia that she is his sister and Vader is their father. Surrendering to Imperial troops, he is brought before Vader, and fails to convince him to reject the dark side of the Force.

The biggest reveal in cinema history....is wrong?.

I fail to see how you can say he's not Luke's father.....so who is?.

The fact that you are citing the actual retcons within ESB and ROTJ means that you fundamentally haven't understood what I'm saying. (Edit: or you're trolling) I'm talking about the original Star Wars movie, later retitled as Episode IV: A New Hope. Not ESB, not ROTJ. The highlighted parts in your reply are the retcons. You're looking at it as a complete trilogy, which it wasn't when the first film came out.

Again, I'm not making this up, it isn't just my opinion, it is well established.

 

[captain nemo1701]

I am most definitely not trolling you. It doesn't really matter what was happening in the planning stages or umpteen script rewrites. What matters is what ends up on screen which crystallises the story and establishes events & relationships for the audience. Not much was established in episode 4, so that left the door open to add to the character relationships. Vader may have started out with no relation to Luke, but thats not how it ended. It would be more accurate to say that Vader wasn't intended to be his father and not just 'he isn't' since that implies the story as presented is incorrect and suggests someone else is.