Hybrid with torque sensor under £1500 or convert existing bike?

[ade towell]

Interesting so it doesn't feel the same as a direct drive torque sensor? Would that be the same for the other rear hub motors with torque sensors?

 

[Dadam]

I’ve never ridden a bike with a direct drive motor, if that's what you meant (usually the motors the size of a dinner plate that go over 30mph ridden by deliveroo riders). The smaller, legal hub motors tend to be geared i.e. have internal gears to maximise torque at the lower speeds.
I've also not ridden any hub motor ebike with a torque sensor, only mid drive bikes.

My Orbea Gain just has a cadence sensor on the cassette, but still manages to deliver a very natural feeling ride. The issue I had with the controller on the Woosh kit is summed up on this post I posted on another thread.

However, Woosh bikes do sell torque sensor based kits as well which would meet most of your criteria, although the weight is quite high, 3.3kg for the XF08 rear hub motor, 2.8 for the XF07 front hub motor, plus your battery of course.

 

[ade towell]

Yes it is the torque sensor kits from Whoosh I'm interested in though also good to hear the Orbea has a cadence sensor that can feel natural.

The direct drive DIY motors with torque sensor I am looking at can all be had in some kind of UK legal form I think?, they are ​

TSDZ2B - which seems to be an older well established motor that has had issues with heat and needs fiddling with the software to sort but is then quite reliable and pretty cheap. Apparently there is a larger newer TSDZ8 which handles heat better but has only just come out so reliability is unknown​

CYC Photon - which looks great and is smaller in size but is £1000 plus battery

ToSeven DM02/01 - very new but looks promising, the smaller DM02 is nearer the size of the Photon but much cheaper, can be had for about £300 although there are no UK suppliers yet so that would be sent from China and may well have customs duty on top and obviously no local support if things go wrong. It looks like the latest firmware has got that motor working very well though and is tempting although a bit of a risk

As you can see I've gone down a bit of a DIY rabbit hole, the allure of buying a kit is that my dad could still use his Whyte bike which he loves, and it can be moved from bike to bike and bits replaced if necessary - worry that many of these factory built are trickier to fix when out of warranty. Am happy to be wrong about that - in which case the Carrera and the Fiido are the 2 most appealing.
(Apologies for the weird formatting and bold bits, not sure what's happened there)

​

 

[CXRAndy]

There is also the cheaper TSDZ2B torque sensor motor although it seems to be less reliable and a lot more fiddling than the Photon - is that fair/true?

My wife's bike has a TSDZ2 motor kit fitted several years ago. It has been reliable, quiet and just the ticket to get her into regular summer riding.

 

[ade towell]

Did you have to play around with the firmware to reduce heat issues or has it been ok as is? Would only be after a boost to normal peddling, not expecting it to speed my dad up hills off road or anything too exciting

 

[MGman]

Yes it is the torque sensor kits from Whoosh I'm interested in though also good to hear the Orbea has a cadence sensor that can feel natural.

The direct drive DIY motors with torque sensor I am looking at can all be had in some kind of UK legal form I think?, they are ​

TSDZ2B - which seems to be an older well established motor that has had issues with heat and needs fiddling with the software to sort but is then quite reliable and pretty cheap. Apparently there is a larger newer TSDZ8 which handles heat better but has only just come out so reliability is unknown​

CYC Photon - which looks great and is smaller in size but is £1000 plus battery

ToSeven DM02/01 - very new but looks promising, the smaller DM02 is nearer the size of the Photon but much cheaper, can be had for about £300 although there are no UK suppliers yet so that would be sent from China and may well have customs duty on top and obviously no local support if things go wrong. It looks like the latest firmware has got that motor working very well though and is tempting although a bit of a risk

As you can see I've gone down a bit of a DIY rabbit hole, the allure of buying a kit is that my dad could still use his Whyte bike which he loves, and it can be moved from bike to bike and bits replaced if necessary - worry that many of these factory built are trickier to fix when out of warranty. Am happy to be wrong about that - in which case the Carrera and the Fiido are the 2 most appealing.
(Apologies for the weird formatting and bold bits, not sure what's happened there)

​

A bit late in posting this but:

Now at age of 82- here's just a little input.
I believe from reading the above I sense you are in danger of over-thinking this.

I enjoy riding my Ribble and Genesis bikes.I also have an Orbea Gain M20, and earlier for a few years owned a Raleigh Motus.
Bottom line - the non electic bikes serve a very different purpose to that of the Orbea.

When there are hills or a longer ride - then it's the Orbea. But for the joy of riding a relatively lightweight road bike - then it's the other two. Your Dad may well have a similar attachment to his Whyte bike.

Just get him a electric bike and let him choose which one the will want "on the day".

Oh and he's, lucky to have such a "caring" son. That means more than anything

 

[ade towell]

Thanks for your thoughts, and we had come to the same conclusion of keep the Whyte bike as is and add an electric. He's just waiting for his back to recover and then will try the Carrera Subway e bike mentioned earleir in the thread, Halfords do a 6 hour trial so will give him a good idea never having ridden an e bike before. Will go from there

 

[bonzobanana]

Thanks for your thoughts, and we had come to the same conclusion of keep the Whyte bike as is and add an electric. He's just waiting for his back to recover and then will try the Carrera Subway e bike mentioned earleir in the thread, Halfords do a 6 hour trial so will give him a good idea never having ridden an e bike before. Will go from there

Halfords do a range of ebikes that use the Suntour HESC system which are all torque sensor based. I personally think the Subway is probably the best option due to lack of suspension and being a strong multi-purpose ebike but they do 700c wheel based models like the Carrera Crossfire and a few hardtail mountain bikes like the Vengeance which is basically the Subway with a front suspension fork and a few other component changes. I'm not a fan of the Crossfire myself because of the Suntour NEX suspension fork but have seen on youtube a gig economy courier delivering takeaways across Bristol with one and clocked up huge miles and it seems to have given excellent service. There are quite a few steep hills in Bristol and he seems to go up them with minimal problems although the rider is quite light and seems to work 2-4 hrs on one charge which is probably 30 miles or more. Halfords at one point were taking 25p in every £ spent on cycling in the UK and because of their pricing and the fact they sell bikes at lower pricing meant it was estimated at one point they had 40% of bicycle sales. At the same time I think they claimed 11% of sales were ebikes. It's a staggering amount of ebikes with the Suntour HESC system that Halfords have sold.

 

[rualexander]

Whyte Rheo 2 on sale just now a at Cycles UK
https://www.cyclesuk.com/shop/bikes/sub/electric/whyte-rheo-2-139718/option/

Kynamic rear hub motor with bottom bracket torque sensor.
250wh battery and 45Nm torque.

https://whytebikes.com/products/rheo-2-my24-a

 

[404 Not Found Anywhere]

I would agree with MGman’s comments, I have an electric bike with mid drive and I fitted a motor to my recumbent trike. I don’t think it did anything to improve the trike, it turned it into a heavy lump and took the fun out of riding. Since I took the kit off I’ve been riding much more. I fear adding a e-bike kit to your dad‘s Whyte might have the same effect.

 

[TheDoctor]

I'm maybe a bit late here, but the Swytch Go kit is worth a look.
I've put 1000km on mine in a month.
No torque sensor option, but I very much like the feel of it.

 

[ade towell]

Just to book end this thread... we went for the ToSeven DM02 torque sensor motor and have to say am absolutely loving it
https://to7motor.com/product/dm02-ebike-mid-drive-motor
To explain - whilst doing the research on an e-bike for my dad, I have since picked up a hernia and with an arthritic hip got intrigued myself by the idea of a torque sensor motor and with a 10 year old hardtail mainly gathering dust and being only really used for leaving around town and shopping carrying duties decided to convert it with ideas for using it to carry even more shopping and possibly with the addition of a trailer use it to carry all my film making equipment to work - tripod, lighting and camera
Installed the DM02 over the festive season, and so far am having the most fun I’ve had on a bike since pre hernia full suspension days. The old hardtail had a triple at the front and with the 42t offset chain ring have had no issues with chain line which I had read could be problematic.
Am using the bike on and off road mainly on the lowest setting - level 1 eco and it is plenty powerful enough for me, am loving the subtle but helpful torque sensor, am amazed how quiet it is. I presume I’m on old firmware, it says release 240914 which I believe is 14th September? The motor came from PSW Power in Germany to the UK cost £260 which I feel is a bargain but didn’t come with any program cable. If anyone else here has the motor and with the latest firmware - is it worth getting one, what am I missing out on with the latest firmware bearing in mind I am happy with it as is?
Anyway so far this motor has surpassed my expectations, is my first real e-bike experience coming from riding acoustic bikes on 50-100 miles rides. The main limitation I have is the battery, bought also from PSW power a 48v 20ah triangle shape battery with Chinese unnamed batteries for £170 (8.1kg apparently), and am getting 40 mile rides on level 1 eco. Would a 52v 28ah with Panasonic batteries for £450 give me a lot more range? It doesn’t say how heavy or individual battery size.
https://reddragonebikes.co.uk/shop/...ttery-panasonic-cell-50a-bms-with-4a-charger/
Just to add it is only just above freezing here in the UK so presume the 40 mile range would be much extended in the summer, but wondering by how much?
Yesterday my dad came over to check it out and after a test ride on my hardtail he loved it too and immediately ordered one to go on his Whyte R7 Shoreditch. The main alternative he had been considering was the front hub motor from Whoosh but with the carbon fork on the Whyte was not ideal
Anyway thanks for all the great suggestions from everyone, much appreciated - will update here if either of us have any issues

 

[CXRAndy]

Just to book end this thread... we went for the ToSeven DM02 torque sensor motor and have to say am absolutely loving it
https://to7motor.com/product/dm02-ebike-mid-drive-motor
To explain - whilst doing the research on an e-bike for my dad, I have since picked up a hernia and with an arthritic hip got intrigued myself by the idea of a torque sensor motor and with a 10 year old hardtail mainly gathering dust and being only really used for leaving around town and shopping carrying duties decided to convert it with ideas for using it to carry even more shopping and possibly with the addition of a trailer use it to carry all my film making equipment to work - tripod, lighting and camera
Installed the DM02 over the festive season, and so far am having the most fun I’ve had on a bike since pre hernia full suspension days. The old hardtail had a triple at the front and with the 42t offset chain ring have had no issues with chain line which I had read could be problematic.
Am using the bike on and off road mainly on the lowest setting - level 1 eco and it is plenty powerful enough for me, am loving the subtle but helpful torque sensor, am amazed how quiet it is. I presume I’m on old firmware, it says release 240914 which I believe is 14th September? The motor came from PSW Power in Germany to the UK cost £260 which I feel is a bargain but didn’t come with any program cable. If anyone else here has the motor and with the latest firmware - is it worth getting one, what am I missing out on with the latest firmware bearing in mind I am happy with it as is?
Anyway so far this motor has surpassed my expectations, is my first real e-bike experience coming from riding acoustic bikes on 50-100 miles rides. The main limitation I have is the battery, bought also from PSW power a 48v 20ah triangle shape battery with Chinese unnamed batteries for £170 (8.1kg apparently), and am getting 40 mile rides on level 1 eco. Would a 52v 28ah with Panasonic batteries for £450 give me a lot more range? It doesn’t say how heavy or individual battery size.
https://reddragonebikes.co.uk/shop/...ttery-panasonic-cell-50a-bms-with-4a-charger/
Just to add it is only just above freezing here in the UK so presume the 40 mile range would be much extended in the summer, but wondering by how much?
Yesterday my dad came over to check it out and after a test ride on my hardtail he loved it too and immediately ordered one to go on his Whyte R7 Shoreditch. The main alternative he had been considering was the front hub motor from Whoosh but with the carbon fork on the Whyte was not ideal
Anyway thanks for all the great suggestions from everyone, much appreciated - will update here if either of us have any issues

That motor is a TSDZ2 just rebadge. It will work very well if you dont try and push the power output to maximum. My wife's bike uses 52V 17Ah batteries. She has two available. Range in summer is a comfortable 50 miles

That triangle pack battery will give you huge range, towards a 100 miles

 

[ade towell]

From everything I’ve read although they look very similar the DM02 has a different torque sensor and much better heat dissipation than the Tongsheng - it gives out a lot more power. Good to know that battery will do up to a 100 miles, that’s really what I am after


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N_X0pQhWjk


This guy has done a bunch of testing and feels the DM02 is closer to the CYC Photon (which retails here for about £1k) in performance, than it is the Tongsheng. It is apparently the same designer for both the Tongsheng and the Toseven DM02 hence the similarities

 

[CXRAndy]

Re the firmware update. I haven't updated the wife's, because it does everything we want. I added a couple extra power levels, changed the voltage to 52V, upped the available power. This was all done from the display. I haven't updated firmware, though I do have the programming lead

I know the latest TSDZ2 comes with colour display and additional settings to play with.

I would suggest, if it's working fine and you've got all the features leave it alone.