Groupset help please - all these numbers are baffling me!

[sabian92]

Sabian, Ralighnut mentioned this above, but to expand: some groupsets have a choice of a normal rear mech or a touring one, which is longer and has a greater capacity. If you are buying a groupset in a box it may have the normal mech in it so you'll have to ask about swapping it.

With Shimano stuff if your mech is too short you can nearly always use a touring one from a different group.

Well, I wasn't planning on just getting the whole lot in a box as it includes brakes and not only am I going for discs, I don't think the disc trucker even has a place to put them anyway So all in all pretty pointless to pay for something I can't/won't use. I know they aren't massively expensive in the grand scheme of things but it'd mean faffing about trying to sell them on etc... not really worth the hassle.

I think if you look a the present 105-5800 they only list three cassette choices 12-25, 11-28 and 11-32 I think from what your wanting you'll be better with 50-34 chainset and the 11-32 cassette, you'll have to get the medium cage rear derailleur as the short only covers up to 28t. also Shimano don't make a triple chainset in 105-5800, sorry.

Even with a double will I have the capacity to spin up long climbs though, that's what I'm worried about. Fitness (or lack of) aside, I will eventually (he says...) be touring on it and I don't fancy grinding up a hill fully loaded wishing I'd gone for lower gearing.

Can I not use a 11sp cassette from the 5800 range then use a triple from the 5700 range with a longer derailleur?

 

[andyfraser]

I would've thought a triple would be better for touring. You'll need the lower gears with a load on the bike.

 

[sabian92]

I would've thought a triple would be better for touring. You'll need the lower gears with a load on the bike.

Aye, indeed.

So I'm able to run a 11sp cassette (from the 5800 stuff) with a triple (from 5700 stuff) with discs? That's the $1m question

 

[Tojo]

Can I not use a 11sp cassette from the 5800 range then use a triple from the 5700 range with a longer derailleur?[/QUOTE]


5700 is 10sp and 5800 is 11sp, different chains, you could go with a Campag groupset they have Athena 11sp triple groupset the only thing is it'll cost you a hell of lot
more than 105.......Ribble are listing it for £565 but out of stock.....your not having much luck....

 

[Eurostar]

If you mean a 5700 10 speed rear mech with a 5800 11 speed cassette...no. The rear mech, lever and cassette should all be the same speed.

Edit: 5800 is too new for Shimano to have brought out a triple crank or a long rear mech. They probably will. So you either buy a double 5800 now and upgrade to a triple later, or buy a 5700 triple. It's only 10 speed, but if you choose your ratios well you should still be able to get everything just so.

Edit again: and you'll save some money, which you can spend on better wheels. Which are more important than having the latest groupset anyway. (I deliberately went from 10 speed back to 8 speed and I don't feel I'm missing anything.)

 

[sabian92]

5700 is 10sp and 5800 is 11sp, different chains, you could go with a Campag groupset they have Athena 11sp triple groupset the only thing is it'll cost you a hell of lot
more than 105.......Ribble are listing it for £565 but out of stock.....your not having much luck....

105 is about my upper limit cost wise for a drivetrain, any higher and it's hard to justify. I've found 105 kit online for around £300-£350 so that's decent cost wise.

If you mean a 5700 10 speed rear mech with a 5800 11 speed cassette...no. The rear mech, lever and cassette should all be the same speed.

Edit: 5800 is too new for Shimano to have brought out a triple crank or a long rear mech. They probably will. So you either buy a double 5800 now and upgrade to a triple later, or buy a 5700 triple. It's only 10 speed, but if you choose your ratios well you should still be able to get everything just so.

Edit again: and you'll save some money, which you can spend on better wheels. Which are more important than having the latest groupset anyway. (I deliberately went from 10 speed back to 8 speed and I don't feel I'm missing anything.)

Ah, I see. In that case it'll have to be 5700 - I'm not interested in the latest kit (well, I am, but I wouldn't choose new stuff over most appropriate!).

For ratios then - looking on Wiggle, they do a few different combinations, from 11-25 to 12-27 for the rear cassette, am I able to go for the lowest from that (12-27?) with the triple which appears to only come in 50-39-30?

And I can run discs from 105 levers too, I presume? Looking at Google Shimano do 105 cable operated discs so I would presume yes.

Sorry, I ask a lot of questions, I'm not daft, honest

 

[Tojo]

Ah, I see. In that case it'll have to be 5700 - I'm not interested in the latest kit (well, I am, but I wouldn't choose new stuff over most appropriate!).

For ratios then - looking on Wiggle, they do a few different combinations, from 11-25 to 12-27 for the rear cassette, am I able to go for the lowest from that (12-27?) with the triple which appears to only come in 50-39-30?

And I can run discs from 105 levers too, I presume? Looking at Google Shimano do 105 cable operated discs so I would presume yes.




Yes, that's probably the easiest way to go with the 105-10sp triple groupset.......

 

[Shut Up Legs]

Dont bother with 5700 - it is a bit draggy on the gears because the way the cable run. The 5800 is way superior. A compact 50-34 with a 32t lower cog cassette will give you almost same lowest gear as a triple with a 28t lowest.

On my Vivente touring bike (my commuter), I use 50-39-30 on front and 11..34 on rear. So my lowest gear ratio is quite nice for ridiculously steep hills.

 

[Eurostar]

I wouldn't make any decisions until you've followed the links we've posted and worked out your ideal ratios. Don't be guided by other people's ratios or by what Shimano wants to sell you. You might discover that a compact double is all you need. I'm not sure that anybody really needs a triple unless they are hauling camping gear up the steepest climbs. Maybe with a compact you won't be able to hit 60 by pedalling downhill...

 

[sabian92]

On my Vivente touring bike (my commuter), I use 50-39-30 on front and 11..34 on rear. So my lowest gear ratio is quite nice for ridiculously steep hills.

Ah, and just as a point of reference, would 12-27 be lower or higher than 11-34?

 

[sabian92]

I wouldn't make any decisions until you've followed the links we've posted and worked out your ideal ratios. Don't be guided by other people's ratios or by what Shimano wants to sell you. You might discover that a compact double is all you need. I'm not sure that anybody really needs a triple unless they are hauling camping gear up the steepest climbs. Maybe with a compact you won't be able to hit 60 by pedalling downhill...

Course, I need to go out to the shed and work out what I've got at the moment but I've been busy at uni, I work evenings etc. It'll have to be Saturday daytime more than likely but I will indeed have a good nosey around and see what's what, I'm just trying to understand it a bit more.

Numbers are most definitely not my strong point, I can tell you that for a fact!

 

[Pale Rider]

Ah, and just as a point of reference, would 12-27 be lower or higher than 11-34?

You want the biggest number of teeth for ease of pedalling, so 34 is easier - lower - than 27.

You want the fewest number of teeth for harder pedalling for more speed so 11 is harder - higher - than 12.

The above is reversed on the front chain rings where the more teeth, the higher the gear.

 

[migrantwing]

@lpretro1 Why is 5800 way superior to 5700? You mention the way 5700 cables run causes it to be draggy. How and why is the 5800 superior compared to this? I'm just curious.

 

[Tojo]

@lpretro1 Why is 5800 way superior to 5700? You mention the way 5700 cables run causes it to be draggy. How and why is the 5800 superior compared to this? I'm just curious.

I'm curious too as a lot of people have went back to 10sp as 11sp can be a bit finicky to set up and keep running right because of the closer tolerances....!. Cable run /routeing is different on frame to frame, maybe that is due to that deduction rather than the components of the groupset itself....! Also a big problem with any groupset is kinked outers/pinch points and using the wrong cabling..!

 

[Svendo]

No one else has mentioned so I thought I'd just make it clear that Shimano 11 speed rear derailleurs have a different pull ratio to earlier derailleurs, so you can't use an 11 speed derailleur with a 9 or 10 speed lever and vice versa. (however there may be cable routings or devices that do make this possible but I've not come across them yet.)
According to Leonard Zinn (on Velonews website) all the 11 speed cassettes are interchangeable, and chainsets/front derailleurs will almost always work to a greater or lesser degree.