Greed knows no bounds.

[pjd57]

Over policing is an issue but that only effects the the ground and the area round it not the wider over spill. Which still need to be covered.
Over the 20+ years of proving FA cover 1st as a cadet then as an adult duty office responsible for not just 1000's of fans but the safety of 20+ fellow members. I have seen violence had to deal with it from punch ups to having to treating fans in the middle of a full on riot of away fans.

Football is like no other licensed business if you owned a bar that required police to call round every week to deal with violence both inside and outside the venue. You'd soon find yourself before licensing and be closed down. But football can just carry on. As for local taxpayers are fans yes it's true but away fans are not. So maybe a charge back to the away LA maybe a part fix. In the end if you wish to run and event or put on show ect you have to arrange and pay for correct cover of stewards, FA ect or you can't run the event it's called being responsible and fair to all. A concert by a big name as an eg has to also show how they internet to reduce the impact on local A and E and hospitals so my 20 members becomes 200+ along with 20+ team of HCP's and a large number of the big vans with blue lights. Football is in a world of its own.

As for party conferences ect police are able to apply for home office funding to cover the cost. But yes that needs looking at but its not every week and its not just down to one local force but others. inc the met and special branch. In the end someone has to pay if footballl can have transfer budgets 1000's of times bigger than a police force budget then they can well afford to pay the true cost of covering a match.

You talk about policing and compare football and pubs.
From my experience most of the trouble that is attributed to football and football fans is more about pubs and alcohol than it is the football itself.

Papers and TV love a screaming headline about " football hooligans " but when you read a full report , very often it turns out that the offences commited happened nowhere near a football ground and often involved people who didn't actually attend any match.

They stand in a bar , shout at the TV , get drunk and cause trouble.
Thats for the pubs , police , TV company to look at.

Some people don't agree with that and still say that this is still a football problem.
I usually ask , if there was a fight in a pub that had Coronation Street on the TV would it be Coronation streets fault

 

[Slioch]

You talk about policing and compare football and pubs.
From my experience most of the trouble that is attributed to football and football fans is more about pubs and alcohol than it is the football itself.

Papers and TV love a screaming headline about " football hooligans " but when you read a full report , very often it turns out that the offences commited happened nowhere near a football ground and often involved people who didn't actually attend any match.

They stand in a bar , shout at the TV , get drunk and cause trouble.
Thats for the pubs , police , TV company to look at.

Some people don't agree with that and still say that this is still a football problem.
I usually ask , if there was a fight in a pub that had Coronation Street on the TV would it be Coronation streets fault

I agree with your comment that much of the trouble can be attributed to pubs and alcohol, but I believe that the underlying driver for these behaviours can still be the football and the cultural tensions that are generated because of that.

I used to live just off Partick Cross in west of Glasgow, and on a particular street there was "Celtic" pub on one corner, and a "Rangers" pub on the other.

Whenever there was an Old Firm game on, there would be a line of police vans down this street to keep the two factions segregated. The only other days of the year that the police did this was when there was an Orange march on, the rest of the year it was normal.

It is possible that the majority of the people in both of these pubs did not have tickets to go to the match, however the behaviours I witnessed on more than one occasion were purely driven by the football event taking place that day.

And I'm not just singling out the Old Firm. I'm sure similar "rivalries" are displayed throughout other cities and towns throughout the UK.

 

[pjd57]

I agree with your comment that much of the trouble can be attributed to pubs and alcohol, but I believe that the underlying driver for these behaviours can still be the football and the cultural tensions that are generated because of that.

I used to live just off Partick Cross in west of Glasgow, and on a particular street there was "Celtic" pub on one corner, and a "Rangers" pub on the other.

Whenever there was an Old Firm game on, there would be a line of police vans down this street to keep the two factions segregated. The only other days of the year that the police did this was when there was an Orange march on, the rest of the year it was normal.

It is possible that the majority of the people in both of these pubs did not have tickets to go to the match, however the behaviours I witnessed on more than one occasion were purely driven by the football event taking place that day.

And I'm not just singling out the Old Firm. I'm sure similar "rivalries" are displayed throughout other cities and towns throughout the UK.

If people in or outside pubs want to cause trouble and fight that's a problem for the pub and the police.

It can't be blamed on any football team playing many miles away hours later or earlier.

There will probably be some sort of bad behaviour outside pubs in Glasgow , and other towns tonight where no football matches were played.

Shall we blame the DJ or the karaoke singers for it .

 

[tom73]

You talk about policing and compare football and pubs.
From my experience most of the trouble that is attributed to football and football fans is more about pubs and alcohol than it is the football itself.

Papers and TV love a screaming headline about " football hooligans " but when you read a full report , very often it turns out that the offences commited happened nowhere near a football ground and often involved people who didn't actually attend any match.

They stand in a bar , shout at the TV , get drunk and cause trouble.
Thats for the pubs , police , TV company to look at.

Some people don't agree with that and still say that this is still a football problem.
I usually ask , if there was a fight in a pub that had Coronation Street on the TV would it be Coronation streets fault

No am comparing two licensed business who are required to act within the licence. One can be closed down the other is untouchable it's appears.

No other sport requires away fans to be formally escorted to and from the ground or be kept apart for safety. Near me a few years ago away fans smashed up a pub inc setting fire to the pubs pet parrot that was not a few random drunks. A few drunks in a pub watching a match are not the issue and here again if that becomes a real problem bang go's your licence.

Police are not just about dealing with trouble the large number of fans turning up on mass week in and week out it needs managing and that costs. We are not talking of a local AFC sunday morning knock about but a very large scale business who last year spent over 300m on transfers alone. If nothing changers some police forcers have said they will have to bring in over measures like moving match days and even limiting fan numbers so in the end real fans will be effected one way or the other.

 

[pjd57]

No am comparing two licensed business who are required to act within the licence. One can be closed down the other is untouchable it's appears.

No other sport requires away fans to be formally escorted to and from the ground or be kept apart for safety. Near me a few years ago away fans smashed up a pub inc setting fire to the pubs pet parrot that was not a few random drunks. A few drunks in a pub watching a match are not the issue and here again if that becomes a real problem bang go's your licence.

Police are not just about dealing with trouble the large number of fans turning up on mass week in and week out it needs managing and that costs. We are not talking of a local AFC sunday morning knock about but a very large scale business who last year spent over 300m on transfers alone. If nothing changers some police forcers have said they will have to bring in over measures like moving match days and even limiting fan numbers so in the end real fans will be effected one way or the other.

I don't think we will agree on this.
I think football and it's fans are just an easy target, lazy headline.

Football puts a lot of money into the economy in many areas but gets little or no recognition for it.

Most of the games I attend in GkGlasg have zero trouble, no arrests , but that's not much of a story.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Should we charge other organisations for police time, party conferences, royal visits etc

Party conferences have huge numbers of police in attendance, why should they be subsidised by the rest of us

I'm pretty sure my work (large events, concerts, conferences venue) gets charged if the Police need to attend.
I googled if Police Scotland actually do charge events organizers: yes, they do.
Linky.

 

[classic33]

No am comparing two licensed business who are required to act within the licence. One can be closed down the other is untouchable it's appears.

No other sport requires away fans to be formally escorted to and from the ground or be kept apart for safety. Near me a few years ago away fans smashed up a pub inc setting fire to the pubs pet parrot that was not a few random drunks. A few drunks in a pub watching a match are not the issue and here again if that becomes a real problem bang go's your licence.

Police are not just about dealing with trouble the large number of fans turning up on mass week in and week out it needs managing and that costs. We are not talking of a local AFC sunday morning knock about but a very large scale business who last year spent over 300m on transfers alone. If nothing changers some police forcers have said they will have to bring in over measures like moving match days and even limiting fan numbers so in the end real fans will be effected one way or the other.

If it is down soley to match days, then why aren't the landlords held accountable?

A big attraction for many pubs now is that they advertise the match can be seen there. The laws exist to prosecute the landlord(s), but how often is that done? It's not done because in many cases they don't want to ruin town/city centre trade. They're happy to complain about the damage being done, but seldom if ever do anything about it. Why?

How many places would survive if they were charging/charged the cost of disposal of waste materials, used soley within their trade. Other countries set a limit, why not the UK.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

If nothing changers some police forcers have said they will have to bring in over measures like moving match days and even limiting fan numbers so in the end real fans will be effected one way or the other.

They do - they advise on match kick offs and give input on safety certificates on fan numbers.

In Scotland we have the bigot sisters, clubs who attract huge numbers of people not particularly interested in football and with an absolute hatred for each other and anyone not of their "tribe". Celtic and The The Rangers have been washing their hands of the mayhem committed by their supporters for years. Before they died, Rangers fans ran amok in the streets of Manchester and Celtic fans did the same in Amsterdam, it's ridiculous to suggest the presence of their club had nothing to do with it.

However, the strange thing about policing of games (in Scotland anyway) is the Police decide the manning levels in advance and bill the clubs for their services, which they have no choice but to pay. This leads to some very odd policing levels at lower league games. Dumbarton v Falkirk for example a couple of years ago, less than 1000 fans were confronted with two coachloads of police, land sharks and a mobile CCTV unit that followed 12 young lads from the train station to the ground. Bizarre!

 

[Andy in Germany]

I still remember the chaos in the UK on match days when I was a child, trouble at school between different teams' supporters and the way the police had to cordon off city centres when there was a match on. I think that was a major factor in my general dislike of football.

So when I was in Munich railway station soon after moving to Germany, and realised there was a match on, I was expecting the worst, only to see rival fans approach each other, shout a bit, then link arms and wander off to a bar.

We also did live screening for the WM where I work and never had a bit of trouble including when people from rival teams were there.

But when England supporters turn up they seem to require their own police force, and even with British Police around they're a pain in the backside.

 

[marinyork]

To illustrate @Diogenes post above, the city centre car parking fees can only be described as utter robbery with more and more residents opting to use the out of town shopping centres. The city centre is slowly dying.

York traffic debate has never been very honest. I never went to a more car obsessed city. People driving hundreds of metres into town. Yet when I lived there and ever since we are told it's a 'cycling city'. No it's ****ing not it is a car city. The backslapping by the politicians and campaigners is laughable.

When I lived in York the residents ranted on for hours about tourists, Polish people and students, I would have thought this policy would be popular.

 

[pjd57]

They do - they advise on match kick offs and give input on safety certificates on fan numbers.

In Scotland we have the bigot sisters, clubs who attract huge numbers of people not particularly interested in football and with an absolute hatred for each other and anyone not of their "tribe". Celtic and The The Rangers have been washing their hands of the mayhem committed by their supporters for years. Before they died, Rangers fans ran amok in the streets of Manchester and Celtic fans did the same in Amsterdam, it's ridiculous to suggest the presence of their club had nothing to do with it.

However, the strange thing about policing of games (in Scotland anyway) is the Police decide the manning levels in advance and bill the clubs for their services, which they have no choice but to pay. This leads to some very odd policing levels at lower league games. Dumbarton v Falkirk for example a couple of years ago, less than 1000 fans were confronted with two coachloads of police, land sharks and a mobile CCTV unit that followed 12 young lads from the train station to the ground. Bizarre!

Big broad brush there ....

Don't want to go over it all.
Just one thing though.
You mentioned Amsterdam.
Fans arrested in Amsterdam have only recently after 5 years won all their appeals.
The courts were very critical of police in plain clothes who attacked fans.
You may not have been aware of this as it received very little media coverage.

In recent times the only trouble anywhere near Celtic park has involved fans of one of the small clubs, Airdrie , who caused trouble before and after the game.

 

[Slioch]

Shall we blame the DJ or the karaoke singers for it .

To attempt to inject a bit of levity into this thread as we seem to have moved away from the OP's original intent (it is the "Cafe" after all), have you ever experienced the quality of the karaoke singing upstairs in the Horseshoe Bar in Glasgow city centre on a Saturday night?

Sheesh. If that wouldn't kick off a riot, then I don't know what will (and I speak from experience here, having witnessed Mrs S partaking in hand to hand combat with other lassies, to get her request to sing "I am Woman" by Helen Reddy prioritised to the top of the list).

 

[NorthernDave]

York traffic debate has never been very honest. I never went to a more car obsessed city. People driving hundreds of metres into town. Yet when I lived there and ever since we are told it's a 'cycling city'. No it's ****ing not it is a car city. The backslapping by the politicians and campaigners is laughable.

When I lived in York the residents ranted on for hours about tourists, Polish people and students, I would have thought this policy would be popular.

That's always puzzled me about York.
It must be one of the best connected cities in the country in terms of rail and it has the best Park and Ride set up I've ever seen, yet people still insist on driving right into the centre and complaining about the traffic.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

To attempt to inject a bit of levity into this thread .

A friend was on the train through to Glasgow from Falkirk to meet his girlfriend for a day's shopping on a Saturday. On the train he bumped into a large group of his mates on the way to watch Falkirk play Partick Thistle so he joined the party for a while. When he got off the train at Queen St with them, he was quite surprised when the police kettled all the Falkirk fans - him included - and marched them all up to Firhill as a tight group. No amount of protestations from him or his friends made any impact on Strathclyde's finest as he was virtually frogmarched to the turnstyle. Once there he was pretty much committed to going in and watching the game.

At least that's the story he told a rather irate girlfriend

 

[tom73]

If it is down soley to match days, then why aren't the landlords held accountable?

A big attraction for many pubs now is that they advertise the match can be seen there. The laws exist to prosecute the landlord(s), but how often is that done? It's not done because in many cases they don't want to ruin town/city centre trade. They're happy to complain about the damage being done, but seldom if ever do anything about it. Why?

How many places would survive if they were charging/charged the cost of disposal of waste materials, used soley within their trade. Other countries set a limit, why not the UK.

They often are this is my point. Football seams to have a culture that go's alongside it which often bring issues that have to be dealt with without any fall back on the club. If other licensed events have to pay the full cost of policing not just in case but for over all management of mass numbers then the multi million pound clubs should do so too.