Gathering some facts on road costs

[growingvegetables]

Linford .............. just a wee hint.

Referring to the government "using drivers as cash cows to fund their spending schemes" is'nt ............. a persuasive answer to my query, "Why should motorists have any special claim on the monies raised from fuel/VED?"

I'm feeling quite underwhelmed.

 

[Linford]

So if you don't like being taxed, why not go live in a city and stop driving? It's not compulsory.

I daresay the govt will find something else to tax if the savings on the health budget from more active travel aren't enough.

We are discussing principles here though of spreading the burden of tax evenly amongst the population.

The health benefits of cycling are irrelevant as that could be said for going to the gym - why not fund gyms instead of hospitals where the service is free at the point of delivery, it would be cheaper than funding a national road network exclusively for cyclists to use ?

If I sound unreasonable, that to me is the same as someone else demanding that people who live in a place which doesn't have a big Tesco/B&Q/etc on their doorstep to up sticks and move to somewhere which does (that sends a terrible message of big brother dictating don't you think ?)

For the record, I live in a place which has all of the big supermarkets, and all of the big DIY's within walking distance for the fit and able, and a town center (pop 120k) which I can walk to in 20 minutes. I don't work within walking distance though, and the buses don't run to suit my working patterns. I've always had to find my own way be it by car (and carshare), motorcycle or cycle commuting.

 

[Linford]

Linford .............. just a wee hint.

Referring to the government "using drivers as cash cows to fund their spending schemes" is'nt ............. a persuasive answer to my query, "Why should motorists have any special claim on the monies raised from fuel/VED?"

I'm feeling quite underwhelmed.

There is nothing wrong with expecting people to fund a system which they use and car drivers are no exception. My feelings are that VED should be abolished, the MOT certificate is replaced by a MOT disk which is displayed in or on the vehicle, and the burden be put onto fuel duty - the more you burn, the more you pay. That would in principle only encourage people to do essential journey's, and make the high milage ones who do damage the network more pay proportionately for that.

If we apply a system of pay for what you use, then all users should contribute towards it - that is logical and fair - don't you think ?

My feelings are that the system of raising money for the roads has long been abused as a way of raising taxes in a way which is unconnected to income, and thus is an unfair one as it is only applied by demand and usage in an illogical way which penalises some, whilst rewarding others. The whole tax system across the board from top to bottom needs shaking up IMO

 

[GrasB]

My feelings are that VED should be abolished, the MOT certificate is replaced by a MOT disk which is displayed in or on the vehicle, and the burden be put onto fuel duty - the more you burn, the more you pay. That would in principle only encourage people to do essential journey's, and make the high milage ones who do damage the network more pay proportionately for that.

It also taxes driving style. My Alfa is a bit of a performance monster. Drive it aggressively & it's capable of delivering sub-30mpg fuel usage figures. However I get low-50mpg (mixture of town & country driving) to high-60mpg (long motorway cruises) figures out of it. I do so because I drive in an economical manner only tapping into its performance reserves when I need to.

 

[Linford]

It also taxes driving style. My Alfa is a bit of a performance monster. Drive it aggressively & it's capable of delivering sub-30mpg fuel usage figures. However I get low-50mpg (mixture of town & country driving) to high-60mpg (long motorway cruises) figures out of it. I do so because I drive in an economical manner only tapping into its performance reserves when I need to.

And quite rightly so. Another example of how unfairly the VED is applied, How come also that my 162kg 636cc bike doing 4,000 miles per year attracts a £80 pa VED charge, but a 1.5 tonne 1500cc prius being driven 60,000 miles a year by a rep pays none at all ?

The rules are just arse - we all know that CO2 banding isn't going to save the planet, and the top polluters as cars which attract the top VED band (lambos, spykers etc) are only driven about 5,000 miles per year anyway.

 

[GrasB]

but a 1.5 tonne 1500cc prius being driven 60,000 miles a year by a rep pays none at all ?

Now here's an irony for you. On long motorway journeys my Alfa fully loaded uses less fuel than my neighbors Pruis with just the driver. This is despite the nominal economy figure of 38mpg combined for the Alfa

 

[Linford]

Now here's an irony for you. On long motorway journeys my Alfa fully loaded uses less fuel than my neighbors Pruis with just the driver. This is despite the nominal economy figure of 38mpg combined for the Alfa

My motorbike is vastly more economical in traffic to a prius as I can filter and they can't - and the engine in a prius spins up after a very short while to recharge the batteries.

The Prius is always going to be juicy in normal driving mode because they are small engine cars being reved hard to drag a large and heavy battery pack around.

 

[GrasB]

Still ironic that the Prius with a headline mpg almost twice as high on the Alfa ends up being less economical in fairly normal driving conditions (rather than a Top Gear contrived M3 v's Pruis economy test)

 

[Linford]

The prius was contrived to fulfil political will though - it is the personification of gesture politics -like sticking a band aid plaster on a disembowelling.

Politics is like that though - being seen to do something is king !

 

[growingvegetables]

We are discussing principles here though of spreading the burden of tax evenly amongst the population.

Not quite - and I'd be a lot less grumpy if we were --- the taxes related to road use are not perhaps the easiest starting point? Riddled as they are with contradiction and confusion?

 

[jonesy]

Quite. I think the clue might in the definition of "fairly normal driving"...

 

[GrasB]

I'd like to see some real evidence, rather than anecdata, for such a claim...

I'm routinely seeing low 60s cruising down to the port & then 65-70mpg on the cruise to Italy. My neighbour's is Prius, company car, does high 50s & occasionally gets into the low 60s for sustained motorway driving.

I'll freely admit that around town the Pruis takes the Alfa to the cleaners in terms of economy, it's the urban figure that really drags the Alfa's emissions down in the combined stats. With the Pruis this is where it's hybrid drive can be effectively exploited & it shines. However I rarely drive in urban areas, it's mostly just at the beginning & end of my journey. Out in the countryside it's probably nip & tuck. More down to driving style than the efficiency of the vehicle.