Gathering some facts on road costs

[Nigel-YZ1]

I can't agree with this one sorry !

+1

 

[Linford]

How can the politicians factor in a 'global warming charge' ? - There is a lot of talk about it, but the reality is its effects are not something which can be put a price on as they are not being compensated for in real terms (just another green wash excuse to tax more) . You might as well argue to put a tax on the cost of heating oil, or natural gas, or coal burning (etc) as these are greater contributors of greenhouse gases than vehicle transport.

In addition to this, how can they argue that congestion costs 'x' £ billion either. Any vehicle joining the transport network becomes part of the 'congestion' problem when it meets it. I'd like to see the argument to justify this claim ?

 

[srw]

In addition to this, how can they argue that congestion costs 'x' £ billion either. Any vehicle joining the transport network becomes part of the 'congestion' problem when it meets it. I'd like to see the argument to justify this claim ?

It's the same argument the road lobby uses to justify building new roads which we, the taxpayer, pay for. (As, for that matter, is the argument about environmental pollution.)

Oh, and you might want to revise your assessment of relative VEDs in the light of Richard Mann's observations that road damage is proportional to the fourth power of axleweight.

And come and inspect the roads in Buckinghamshire, which have been sealed in exactly the manner you suggest. Guess where the worst frost damage is done?

 

[Linford]

It's the same argument the road lobby uses to justify building new roads which we, the taxpayer, pay for. (As, for that matter, is the argument about environmental pollution.)

Oh, and you might want to revise your assessment of relative VEDs in the light of Richard Mann's observations that road damage is proportional to the fourth power of axleweight.

And come and inspect the roads in Buckinghamshire, which have been sealed in exactly the manner you suggest. Guess where the worst frost damage is done?

Well, OK, seal them properly when being done, and keep it up together. I feel that a lot of the damage could be avoided if the depts were a bit more pro active in getting potholes sorted as soon as they appear. They can get trains to xray railway lines @50mph, why can't they do similar with the roads ?

Also, Whilst axle weight is important, so is the ground pressure as well. The smaller the contact patch, the more damage for a given weight of vehicle - narrow skinny tyres used to cut through snow and mud are going to leave a deeper impression than something with balloon tyres.

 

[growingvegetables]

Total raised of fuel duty and VED is actually just under £30 billion, and total spent on the roads as you say is about £6 billion.

If the Highways Agency budget for only 3% of the road network, in England alone, is £4,211 million, (source), I think I'd like to see your source for the (fictional?) £6 billion total? Personally, I'd be very surprised if English council (responsible for 97% of the network), Welsh national and council, Scottish national and council, and Northern Irish national and council spending on roads came to only £1.8 billion. Sources please?


You mentioned the total raised from VED. I'd like a bit more than a petrol-head whinge, please (I'm not suggesting you are - but we both know where that's coming from).

[Edited - I copied and pasted the wrong link, and now can't find the damned thing!

Motorists will pay £659.5 million to the DVLA in 2011-12. The DVLA will spend £556.4 million collecting that figure, and enforcing appropriate legislation. Net surplus - £8.1 million (source]

Just two wee thoughts - I've spent a wee bit of time sourcing figures. So I well understand how openness and transparency to the public is extremely well camouflaged under a welter of well-crafted official obfuscation and web-site design.

However ........
- I don't think it's too much to suggest that "the motorist in the middle gets clobbered" needs a little more investigation and evidence?
- and I'll stick to my conviction that motorised road users are massively subsidised - hey, all I'm asking for is simple figures that are slightly more credible than the "total spent on the roads as you say is about £6 billion."

 

[snorri]

You also have to take into consideration the cost to the nation of vast areas of land being blighted by roads and the noise and general disturbance they cause. Property and land prices devalued and the cost of noise insulation measures in nearby housing etc. etc.

 

[Linford]

If the Highways Agency budget for only 3% of the road network, in England alone, is £4,211 million, (source), I think I'd like to see your source for the (fictional?) £6 billion total? Personally, I'd be very surprised if English council (responsible for 97% of the network), Welsh national and council, Scottish national and council, and Northern Irish national and council spending on roads came to only £1.8 billion. Sources please?


You mentioned the total raised from VED. I'd like a bit more than a petrol-head whinge, please (I'm not suggesting you are - but we both know where that's coming from).

Motorists will pay £659.5 million to the DVLA in 2011-12. The DVLA will spend £556.4 million collecting that figure, and enforcing appropriate legislation. Net surplus - £8.1 million (source)


Just two wee thoughts - I've spent a wee bit of time sourcing figures. So I well understand how openness and transparency to the public is extremely well camouflaged under a welter of well-crafted official obfuscation and web-site design.

However ........
- I don't think it's too much to suggest that "the motorist in the middle gets clobbered" needs a little more investigation and evidence?
- and I'll stick to my conviction that motorised road users are massively subsidised - hey, all I'm asking for is simple figures that are slightly more credible than the "total spent on the roads as you say is about £6 billion."

Bloody hell - its worse than I thought. I thought that was a generous appraisal of the amount spent on the roads (i can't recall the exact article, but it was along the lines of this http://money.aol.co.uk/2011/12/15/road-spending-a-third-of-motor-tax/

I would say that the DVLA represents shockingly bad VFM judging by your numbers. The time for them to dispense with VED is long overdue, and if it indeed means that the money taken from motorists in the form of VED is inconsequential, then it won't be missed from the public purse - they will still make more money on the fuel duty than is spent on the roads, and that can be broadened to include all forms of fuel used as well as for energy generation and heating if they do them come back with a shortfall which they can't make up by printing more money

 

[growingvegetables]

Bloody hell - its worse than I thought.

Ummm - I think you missed my point? That the £6 billion figure is a fantasy dreamed up in the fevered brain of a disgruntled petrolhead?

I kinda like this one

Total tax from all road users has increased in real terms since 1967, but tax per individual car owner has reduced ie more cars are spreading the tax burden among more motorists

from the IAM's Motoring taxation and public spending

OR

Since 1990:
❚ the cost of vehicle purchase has fallen by a quarter, servicing and repairs by a fifth, and overall motoring costs have fallen by eight per cent.

IAM again

 

[Linford]

Ummm - I think you missed my point? That the £6 billion figure is a fantasy dreamed up in the fevered brain of a disgruntled petrolhead?

I kinda like this one

from the IAM's Motoring taxation and public spending

OR

IAM again

IAM - What do they do again ? - Ah, I remember, dish out lifetime awards demonstrating that their members have at one stage in their driving 'career' attained an advanced level of demonstratable competence

I think I made some fairly valid points myself Re the VED and DVLA - don't you ?

 

[growingvegetables]

I think I made some fairly valid points myself Re the VED and DVLA - don't you ?

I'm damned if I can find the link I had - the one I thought I'd copied into my post. Anyways, either it was wrong, or I misunderstood - so ignore what I said there I'm tryiny to digest some other stuff

 

[growingvegetables]

Right - tracked it down (Google is not always your friend ) - those figures I quoted were apparently correct, but incomplete. This has the same figures - covering income (fees for various DVLA services) and expenditure (on providing those services). In addition the DVLA will collect £6billion VED and pass it to the exchequer.

Barring me misleading you {blush}, do I think too much money is taken from motorists, as some sort of particularly "persecuted" group? Nope - not really.

 

[Linford]

Right - tracked it down (Google is not always your friend ) - those figures I quoted were apparently correct, but incomplete. This has the same figures - covering income (fees for various DVLA services) and expenditure (on providing those services). In addition the DVLA will collect £6billion VED and pass it to the exchequer.

Barring me misleading you {blush}, do I think too much money is taken from motorists, as some sort of particularly "persecuted" group? Nope - not really.

If we look at it in hard numbers, DVLA puts £6 billion in, and then in addition to that £24 billion is then generated in taxes on fuel (direct taxation and then VAT), and also handed over we are looking at near enough £30 billion. Now we know that buses pay a lip service tax of £165 pa per vehicle, and that the operators also get big rebates back from the exchequer for the tax they pay on fuel which means that effectively either the bus operators profit margins are subsidised by the public purse, or the passengers are. The net result is that the bulk is raised by the haulage industry, business users and the private individuals.

We know that the bulk of it doesn't go back into the road network (as already established above) and is used (as admitted by Tony Bliar a few years ago) to pay for public spending to help bridge the gap in the NHS, armed forces, public servant pensions etc etc.

Now it is all well and done to jump up and down and squeel about the pain inflicted on the motorists but that isn't the end of it (although I do personally consider they do pay a lion share when all the numbers are stacked up with all associated costs of life in the UK) We are all (including non car owners) subject to the duty on fuel which is paid to transport goods around the country and as someone who has run a mail order business for the last 6 years, I've certainly felt the prices rise year on year as a bulk buyer of postal services, and the VAT is the killer as it rises proportionally to the underlying price of the fuel - they pass it on, and in turn I have to as well. There is only so much of the top line which we can soak up before we end up as busy fools

Using a cycle to go and get your goods from the corner shop or local supermarket only represents in most instances a very small proportion of the distance that produce travels.

The gov has you all ways through direct and indirect taxation through flogging hydrocarbons. We simply can't escape that fact however we hope to.

 

[growingvegetables]

We know that the bulk of it doesn't go back into the road network.

Ummmmm ....... and so? The bulk of the duties and taxes raised on beer, wine and spirits don't go back into the pub network either. Why should motorists have any special claim on the monies raised from fuel/VED?

 

[Linford]

Ummmmm ....... and so? The bulk of the duties and taxes raised on beer, wine and spirits don't go back into the pub network either. Why should motorists have any special claim on the monies raised from fuel/VED?

Because if they weren't making that contribution, then it would have to be raised either by printing more money, cutting back services (like welfare spending), or taxing everything and anything which moves or doesn't move.
Running a car represents a very significant proportion of a younger persons already taxed income. On top of the burden of VED and fuel duty, they have to pay 26% in taxes (20% VAT and 6% ins premium tax) on any insurance policy they take out.
These aren't insignificant sums of money to people on minimum wage when premiums are £3kpa

For some people who live out in the sticks, a car is a lifeline which they can't realistically substitute with any other mode as an all round solution. Cycling only makes up 3% of the total miles travelled on the roads in the UK each year. I would hazard a guess and say if that could be raised to 5%, then the gov would not be that happy, and invent more general taxes - (or introduce something like mandatory cycling insurance which they could also tax at 26%) to help reduce the shortfall in income.

Would you be happy to see another 5p on VAT, and hikes in income tax and NI or another couple of years on your retirement age to see a reduction in car use as the gov is and has been for years using drivers as cash cows to fund their spending schemes. At the end of the day £30 billion is knocking on the door of 40% of the total spent on the NHS last year.

 

[Richard Mann]

So if you don't like being taxed, why not go live in a city and stop driving? It's not compulsory.

I daresay the govt will find something else to tax if the savings on the health budget from more active travel aren't enough.