English Literature Degree Cancelled

[wafter]

Agree almost 100%.

Your mothers background sounds very similar to mine, except I didn't go to University, as already explained.

The only 1% I may quibble over is the £40k of debt. It may be called debt, or loan, but, in reality (IMHO) it is a tax. Those who have obtained “degrees of questionable value”, will, in all probability, never pay it back, since repayments are based on earnings, not, amount borrowed or term of loan, or, interest rate.

Yes; sadly it looks more like a tax as most are unlikely to ever pay off the amount in full; especially with the ridiculous interest terms attached to the most recent "loans".

I managed to sqeak through my degree with a "mere" £1k/yr tuition fees; however by that point the associated ramifications of the financialised system had begun taking its toll on the quality of the course as the uni scrabbled to cut costs and tbh I feel that I got somewhat of a raw deal in this aspect; although when all's said I have a lot less debt than many who followed..

 

[DCLane]

@wafter and @BoldonLad - it's definitely a graduate tax rather than a 'fee' or a loan.

Basically they'll pay a percentage based upon earnings above a certain point. Most won't ever pay it off, leading to the Student Loans Company selling off their debts at a discount.

Son no. 1 will graduate with £60k of debt (we think) having done a 4-year integrated Master's plus the minimum student loan. He's done Mechanical Engineering, so a professional course, and hopefully will get a job in the area but he's looking for internships currently to gain additional experience. As he was funded through the European Union since he's not classed as British that might affect his student loan repayments.

Son no. 2 is aiming to go to university in September and will probably leave with £50-60k of debt. Not a professional course (Politics & History) but he has a planned career direction alongside his bike racing. He's going as British so will have to repay it.

 

[geocycle]

Yes the fees are in effect a tax although I do think the interest rates are appalling. A choice has to be made where either everyone pays for universities through tax or individuals attending pay the cost of courses. Living costs are not well supported and more support is needed for lower income families.

Universities themselves are in a tricky position regarding fees which are fixed for a few years and the same across all subjects. The average cost is about £9500 per student with STEM subjects much more than that, so cheaper to teach degrees are needed as part of the mix. International fees are variable and help cross subsidise teaching and research but are incredibly high and exploitive. As this is a false market fees can’t be increased with inflation like in other industries.

 

[a.twiddler]

It's not just the fees though, is it? There are accommodation costs and the rest. My daughter managed to minimise these by applying to a more local university and travelling from home. Following this she did her Masters at Durham which is virtually at the other end of the country. Fortunately we were able to subsidise some of her costs but she still went through a lot of grief for several years until she got a job commensurate with her qualifications. She has now managed to pay off her Student Loan and the cost of her post graduate studies. She didn't want it hanging over her. This was before rates went up to what they are today, and the thought of paying current rates of interest for the foreseeable future must be a major deterrent for potential university students today.

Her brother managed to avoid all that by gaining an apprenticeship (against stiff competition from many other candidates) with a well known prestige car manufacturer. He was selected to be sponsored for his engineering degree, and is now being sponsored for his Masters, too. It's a world away from his sister's experience.

 

[markemark]

How deep can we go with this?

My friend dug a really small mine to collect water. I think he means well.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Education is one of those things many of us have (often strongly held) opinions on, based on a fair bit of personal experience. I know I do. But that personal experience is such a thin slice of the whole subject, and is often woefully out of date, so our opinions are not worth much (I doubt that mine are).

My own view is that university education tends to be over-specialised. If you do a degree in (say) Chemistry or English Literature you'll get a huge level of knowledge about a tiny area. Surely it would be better to be able to choose from a much broader curriculum.

This probably wouldn't work because it's a crackpot idea from someone who knows nothing about education and has a chip on their shoulder about how shite their university education was 40 years ago.

 

[Badger_Boom]

My own view is that university education tends to be over-specialised. If you do a degree in (say) Chemistry or English Literature you'll get a huge level of knowledge about a tiny area. Surely it would be better to be able to choose from a much broader curriculum.

I can see the attraction in a broader higher education but if the 'value' in a degree is derived from the much touted critical thinking and research skills then it shouldn't make any difference. I have a degree in archaeology, but I'm probably unusal among my peers to be still working in the field after several decades. Most have taken their degree skills and got 'proper' jobs.

On the other hand, who knew that a degree in Classics could set you up to become Prime Minister?

 

[fossyant]

Yes the fees are in effect a tax although I do think the interest rates are appalling. A choice has to be made where either everyone pays for universities through tax or individuals attending pay the cost of courses. Living costs are not well supported and more support is needed for lower income families.

Universities themselves are in a tricky position regarding fees which are fixed for a few years and the same across all subjects. The average cost is about £9500 per student with STEM subjects much more than that, so cheaper to teach degrees are needed as part of the mix. International fees are variable and help cross subsidise teaching and research but are incredibly high and exploitive. As this is a false market fees can’t be increased with inflation like in other industries.

Cost of courses are indeed around the £9k-£10k per student per year, with STEM and others costing significantly more. We regularly have Sector wide costing exercises. It's surprising we run any as fees are fixed at £9,250pa.

 

[Bollo]

First off I’m glad this thread has avoided the NACA trapdoor. Hopefully it can survive a little longer.

Both me and Mrs Dr Bollo did Physics degrees in the late '80s and we both went on to do PhDs, mine in applied nuclear physics and MDB in solid state. We're both from working-class backgrounds and both received support grants and didn't pay fees.

The sales pitch for a physics degree is that it trains you in a way of thinking and problem-solving that can be applied across a wide range of careers. That at least was partially true because I remember the graduate fare consisting entirely of management consultancy firms, weapons manufacturers and the nuclear power industry. Yay my opportunities!

By the time we'd started our PhDs, the government mantra was "wealth creation" and there was already some chilling effect on the types of research that would receive EPSRC funding (or whatever the government research funding body was called back then). Pure research had to work much harder than anything that was perceived as "useful", no matter how half-assed.

After a few years of jobbing research I was offered a lecturing contract for a Chemical Engineering department - I'd worked with the then head of the Chem Eng dept and he wanted a tame physicist to teach his students "more than cooking". His words not mine. I'd had enough of short-term research contracts and the dash-for-gas had screwed the nuclear industry so I binned academia and cashed in on the 90s IT boom. MDB moved into University administration and is now quite eminent. Her PhD is a condition of entry but in no way informs her work.

This rambling preamble is a way of saying that there's not much new about the current Gov'ts focus on STEM subjects and the complete lack of focus on what you're supposed to do with them. <NACA Risk>UK gov'ts of both colours (but only one has been in power recently) seem to fetishize STEM subjects rather than understand their worth. The cynical corollary of this is the belief that non-STEM subjects have no economic value, which is bum-gravy.</>

Bolletta will be starting an arts-based degree this year - the regressive Bollo art gene lives on! She's talented and has an entrepreneurial attitude that both her parents lack. She could well make a lot of money, which means paying a lot of tax and employing other people who'll also pay tax. If the education system had labelled her talents as unimportant then what was she supposed to do? For all its faults, this country does creativity quite well so this blinkered view of "value" really boils my urine.

I've had a bad day.

 

[Time Waster]

It was always explained to me that engineering was a popular degree outside of engineering roles because of its high mathematical / analytical elements. That's also true across the STEM range of subjects. Whilst you might not need to use the maths learnt it should allow you to cope with a career needing high numeracy and critical thought. AIUI there's a lot of engineers in accountancy for example.

In a modern world understanding of even quite basic maths and statistics can prevent a lot of misunderstanding. If only it was more common!

 

[Ming the Merciless]

quite basic maths and statistics

But surely everyone is taught that at GCSE?

 

[Once a Wheeler]

Worry not. When all universities have decided that English Literature is not useful, English literature will prove the opposite.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Worked in MNCs all my life and had to fill positions over the years. I did observe that the higher educated did better and the tertiary institutions they went to has a bearing on quality. So the system works. Education is an exceptional social leveller.

If you have children or grand children encourage them to invest in their education. It does pay in the end both financially and in quality of life in the majority of cases.

Some courses do develop critical thinking more than others though it is not the planned outcome. Its an attribute that is clearly noticeable within 30 minutes of a formal discussion on anything. Certain courses sharpens this attribute more than others. If you have reasonable amount of CT skill or ability you can figure out which course develop it more than others. If you are in leadership in any industry or the public service you will also know it.

Lastly there are people in OF that make much more money than someone holding a degree or higher but that is another and a separate argument.