Electric scooters.

[vickster]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-63874621

Why should we even need to be warned about an illegal vehicle invading what is (supposedly) pedestrian-safe space? This is just enabling illegality through lateral movements ...

Possibly in anticipation of some change to the law to allow usage?
or to be applied only to those used legally under a recognised hire scheme/pilot?
or just something for researchers be funded to research?

 

[vickster]

I bought one a couple of years ago, about 6 months before they were banned, i was using it to and from the station plus on back roads in london, then had a cab pull out on me, i swerved, went down hard and cracked a couple of ribs, sprains to wrist and ankle, decided to go back to cycling, feel a bit more in control of a bike. they are good fun but people who ride them don't seem to ride them sensibly, i had extra lights, helmet, hi vis top etc, most people had headphones on(this bugs me with cyclists too) it's a bit of a weird thing that you can hire one to use on the roads of london but can't ride your own.

They were never legal as far as I know, there’s been no active banning? Maybe just increased awareness that they aren‘t legal on public roads, spaces (or sellers actually now bothering to tell buyers they aren’t legal )

 

[postman]

12 year old died today collided with a bus.

 

[classic33]

I bought one a couple of years ago, about 6 months before they were banned, i was using it to and from the station plus on back roads in london, then had a cab pull out on me, i swerved, went down hard and cracked a couple of ribs, sprains to wrist and ankle, decided to go back to cycling, feel a bit more in control of a bike. they are good fun but people who ride them don't seem to ride them sensibly, i had extra lights, helmet, hi vis top etc, most people had headphones on(this bugs me with cyclists too) it's a bit of a weird thing that you can hire one to use on the roads of london but can't ride your own.

They've never been legal in the UK.*
That's the reason, one of many different ones given, for their legal use in trials.

Every motor vehicle is underwritten insurance wise by the MIB. The e-scooters in use in the trials are not covered by either scheme offered by the MIB. Every vehicle insurance policy pays into the "pot" to cover these schemes.

*Unless you had it registered, insured and you had the appropriate license to use one.

 

[icowden]

Why should we even need to be warned about an illegal vehicle invading what is (supposedly) pedestrian-safe space? This is just enabling illegality through lateral movements ...

Because e-scooters are not illegal because the law has been changed to make them so. They are only illegal because the law is out of date. In this case the law is indeed an ass. Government is failing to keep pace with change. Legislation will be needed around driverless vehicles and personal flying machines soon also.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Because e-scooters are not illegal because the law has been changed to make them so. They are only illegal because the law is out of date. In this case the law is indeed an ass. Government is failing to keep pace with change. Legislation will be needed around driverless vehicles and personal flying machines soon also.

I understand that getting insurance for escooters is nigh-impossible. Frankly, anyone who needs to wear a full crash helmet (mirrored visor so you can't see their face), arm & kneepads with padded gloves on an escooter on the pavement - saw this recently - shouldn't be out on the blasted things anyway. They protect themselves, not the peds/cyclist they might hit.

 

[classic33]

Because e-scooters are not illegal because the law has been changed to make them so. They are only illegal because the law is out of date. In this case the law is indeed an ass. Government is failing to keep pace with change. Legislation will be needed around driverless vehicles and personal flying machines soon also.

E-scooters may not be illegal, but their use outside of the trial areas. If used anywhere but your own property.
It's been through the courts, more than once over the last twenty years. Each time they have been told the minimum requirements for their legal use. You get your e-scooters and yourself meeting those minimum requirements, you're free to use them on UK roads. Only it's going to cost, a fair bit more than you want, for you to do so.

As for the personal flying machines, you need to meet the requirements of the CAA. Before thinking of going anywhere, much less going anywhere.
Driverless vehicles, again the laws are already there. Just you may not like them, so may feel they need changing to suit a minority. That's not how things work though.

Maybe this is why the introduction of VED on electric vehicles is being started in 2025. Current e-scooter trials end in November 2024.

 

[classic33]

@icowden, what's the minimum age at which you can hold a driving license, with the relevant Section Q?

The law is keeping up, just that some folk want to pick and choose which they feel apply to them.

 

[Tenkaykev]

As Simon and Garfunkel once sang:
“ Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest “

 

[icowden]

The law is keeping up, just that some folk want to pick and choose which they feel apply to them.

How is a law written primarily in 1988 keeping up with the advent of mass produced vehicles which did not exists at the time?

West Yorkshire Police state that they feel the legislation is technically up to date in that e-scooters are covered and legislated for but that the legislation may well be inappropriate given the requirement for children to have a licence, insurance, registration which cannot even be done, and an MOT.
It's quite clearly silly.

Written evidence submitted by West Yorkshire Police There are no quick and easy answers to the numerous questions raised by the prospect of these becoming legal. I shall attempt to explore the call for written evidence on the points that are most relevant to Roads Policing. 1 – Whether the legislation for e-scooters is up to date and appropriate The current legislation is primarily from the Road traffic Act of 1988 and is clear that the definition of a Mechanically propelled vehicle applies to an e scooter, then when used on a road brings it into the definition of a Motor vehicle. This has been confirmed in case law. So at first sight even though the law was drafted long before E scooters existed it is still up to date in the sense that it applies to them and deals with them. The question of whether it is appropriate is another matter. In its current form it means that any E scooter needs to be registered, licenced, insured, have an MOT and its rider would need the right kind of driving licence. None of which is possible and results in the rider committing several offences by using it on a road or pavement as the footway comprises part of the road. I am not qualified to consider the debate as to what benefits a legalisation of these devices would bring, although the need to consider them as a potentially “green” transport solution is obvious. In order to do this there would have to be several changes to primary legislation. Looking at these in turn:

 

[classic33]

How is a law written primarily in 1988 keeping up with the advent of mass produced vehicles which did not exists at the time?

West Yorkshire Police state that they feel the legislation is technically up to date in that e-scooters are covered and legislated for but that the legislation may well be inappropriate given the requirement for children to have a licence, insurance, registration which cannot even be done, and an MOT.
It's quite clearly silly.

Isn't the age limit there for a reason on all powered road vehicles? Why should e-scooters be exempt from those same laws? Powered scooters are a completely different thing to a child's stunt scooter. They may not look very different at first glance, but look closer.
Ask yourself why there's a lower age limit for those e-scooters involved in the trials. One reason given being the insurance wouldn't cover anyone not old enough to hold a license.
E-bikes have a 14 years old, legal age limit, ask yourself why is that?

What year did GoPeds enter the market?

West Yorkshire police are removing those they do catch from the roads. Reasons given usually include the simple fact the vehicle is illegal/being used illegally.

 

[icowden]

West Yorkshire police are removing those they do catch from the roads. Reasons given usually include the simple fact the vehicle is illegal/being used illegally.

And it is a complete and utter waste of their time and resources when they could be catching actual criminals.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Isn't the age limit there for a reason on all powered road vehicles? Why should e-scooters be exempt from those same laws? Powered scooters are a completely different thing to a child's stunt scooter. They may not look very different at first glance, but look closer.
Ask yourself why there's a lower age limit for those e-scooters involved in the trials. One reason given being the insurance wouldn't cover anyone not old enough to hold a license.
E-bikes have a 14 years old, legal age limit, ask yourself why is that?

What year did GoPeds enter the market?

West Yorkshire police are removing those they do catch from the roads. Reasons given usually include the simple fact the vehicle is illegal/being used illegally.

There used to be a single bloke here in Bristol who rode up & down the Wells Road (A37) on a Go-ped. Awfully noisy and left a smoke trail of pollution behind it. Now, since some idiot added an electric motor....Go-peds are now called escooters. Bad idea then, bad now.
I have to deal with this reduced-visibility corner:

So I'm walking down the street, stood at 'X', just did a quick right shoulder check to see if a car was turning into the road when....suddenly, chav on escooter shoots past on the pavement missing me by about 12 inches, I jumped back as he carried onto the road (his route in red). Listening to his iphone, probably thought I was getting in 'his way'.

 

[icowden]

So I'm walking down the street, stood at 'X', just did a quick right shoulder check to see if a car was turning into the road when....suddenly, chav on escooter shoots past on the pavement missing me by about 12 inches, I jumped back as he carried onto the road (his route in red). Listening to his iphone, probably thought I was getting in 'his way'.

In summary you were startled by someone on an e-scooter who passed you safely, albeit a bit quickly, but without any issue other than you being startled?

 

[classic33]

In summary you were startled by someone on an e-scooter who passed you safely, albeit a bit quickly, but without any issue other than you being startled?

In summary he had someone driving/riding an illegal vehicle on the pavement.
Now replace e-scooter with motor car.