E-scooters to be allowed on public roads

[classic33]

ok, but I'm suggesting that e-scooters do not fit in to any class in the UK appropriately. As motor vehicles it is too harsh (insurance, tax and license). As motorcycles it is too harsh. Somewhere in between a bicycle (completely unregulated) and a moped would fit. i.e. restricted, training required, helmet and identifier required, 3rd party insurance. Pavements are already off limits for bicycles so nothing would change there. To make e-scooters a viable alternative to car ownership, I think you have to meet the users half way otherwise it would not be an attractive enough proposal. The bigger picture is..they might well cause some accidents and result in fatalities, but all vehicles have their dangers both to the occupant and other people. It might well get 10% of cars off the roads in years to come which I expect would outweigh the increased numbers of series/fatal incidents from e-scooter use

They are currently, legally, classified as Personal Light Electric Vehicles (PLEVs).
The list of requirements, should they become legal, include those mentioned mandatory training for the users, and mandatory helmet usage, correct light fitted to the front and rear, registration of ownership and a clampdown on underage use.

 

[Dogtrousers]

To make e-scooters a viable alternative to car ownership, ... It might well get 10% of cars off the roads in years to come

I think that's optimistic.

I saw somewhere (sorry, can't cite a source) a survey of use of a hire scheme (Bristol?) That found that e-scooter use was primarily as an alternative to walking, then as an alternative to public transport but rarely as an alternative to driving.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Yes I agree and failed to point that out in previous posts. Regulation is key so any legal scooter would have to be limited in some way i.e. perhaps 15mph and a sensible wattage.

The only thing I don't agree on is the comparison with mopeds. They are much heavier (65-100kg not including rider) and while I'm not suggesting we allow mopeds on cycle paths, a restricted e-scooter would not be as much a danger IMO. I have been on cycle paths where loons on bicycles have been doing in excess of 30mph (Plymbridge woods in Plymouth if you've ever been)...so if we're debating the speed of e-scooters and the risk/forces in play then that could also be applied to bicycles for which there is no regulation

The main problem with escooters is they're all over pavements. Every time I see an adult on an escooter on the pavement, I think 'Too lazy to walk, too scared of the road'. as a society, we shouldn't be pandering to those with a 'need for speed' and crave convenience, especially since we have an awful obesity problem. When you think about it, we're encouraging people to be lazy.

 

[lazybloke]

It might well get 10% of cars off the roads in years to come

I think that's optimistic.

What has been achieved in NL over the last 5 decades?
Interestingly, I understand they have more cars than ever, but their success is to reduce the number of car journeys.

E-scooters along with an array of other measures could easily reduce the number of car journeys in this country. It's just gonna take a lot of time to alter opinions and reduce 'car mentality'.

 

[captain nemo1701]

I think if private e-scooters were legalised, there would be far fewer dumped on pavements, as presumably the owner would not want them damaged or stolen. The issue of insurance I think is a grey area; they are as likely (in theory) to cause/create as many accidents as bicycles are so I'm not sure mandatory 3rd party insurance is required. This of course does not take into account the age/attitude of the rider, but a bicycle can also reach 30mph, go through red lights and be ridden by a clueless person in a hoodie with headphones on. The only difference I can see is the lack of stability on a scooter and stopping power relative to it's speed.

I think if they were legalised, there'd be even more of them on pavements. As Drago said, the great British public can't be trusted. Give 'em an inch, they take a light year. BTW, some escooters can do 50mph, Google that video of the Australian bloke chased down a cyclepath by motorbike cops doing about 50mph. His excuse 'I was late for work'.

we need to encourage exercise by walking or cycling, escooters are the lazy person's idea of heaven. No effort, just press a button.

And on my way into work this morning, got passed on the pavement by a private escooter rider...riding with one hand and casually carrying a tray of Costa coffees in the other. What could go wrong?.

 

[Electric_Andy]

we need to encourage exercise by walking or cycling, escooters are the lazy person's idea of heaven

I don't think it's the government's priority to encourage exercise in this context. It's about alternative transport and reducing shorter car journeys. The way to encourage this is to encourage cheap, reliable, alternatives that people will take up.Trying to squeeze e-scooters into current vehicle class is a bit backwards I think. We need a new class, or amendments to current class that includes low powered single occupancy vehicles

 

[captain nemo1701]

I don't think it's the government's priority to encourage exercise in this context. It's about alternative transport and reducing shorter car journeys. The way to encourage this is to encourage cheap, reliable, alternatives that people will take up.Trying to squeeze e-scooters into current vehicle class is a bit backwards I think. We need a new class, or amendments to current class that includes low powered single occupancy vehicles

Cheap, reliable....maybe bicycles?. Escooters are dependent on electricity which needs to come from somewhere and might not be entirely green. Nor are they good for transporting luggage etc. They are also a great fire risk:

This video was used in my fire warden training at work. Its almost impossible to put out an Lithium ion battery fire out.

And I would reiterate my original point, they're a blasted menace on pavements. Why does anyone need to go at about 5 times walking speed on a pavement?. They are silent, fast and I had a 72 year old friend knocked into a hedge by escooter 'yoof'.
In Bristol, you are now always looking over your shoulder for them, they are just a pest.

Plus, as a cyclist, I'm not keen on top-of-the-range 40-50mph models on cyclepaths. These are spaces intended for human powered transport, not roads for e-traffic for those who demand speed and convenience.

Best have a massive crackdown on them. Kent police have the right idea, warn, sieze, crush.

 

[Dogtrousers]

E-scooters along with an array of other measures could easily reduce the number of car journeys in this country. It's just gonna take a lot of time to alter opinions and reduce 'car mentality'.

You might be right. But my more pessimistic view is that a E-scooters are likely to only reduce the number of walked journeys and leave the car journeys untouched.

 

[Electric_Andy]

Cheap, reliable....maybe bicycles?

electricity which needs to come from somewhere and might not be entirely green

They are also a great fire risk

Just adding my thoughts to key areas you've pointed out:

they're a blasted menace on pavements

As are bicycles. The menace is in the rider, not the equipment being used.

Why does anyone need to go at about 5 times walking speed on a pavement?

I was not suggesting they be allowed on pavements. I was suggesting in line with other countries in that they can use cycle paths or roads if restricted (i.e. legal). But personally I would jump at the chance to ditch my car journey in favour of legally riding an e-scooter to work in good time, and not needing to chnage/shower at either end.

They are silent, fast and I had a 72 year old friend knocked into a hedge by escooter 'yoof'

Yes they are, but so are bicycles, that's why bicycles require bells. Again, if regulated/legalised then you could apply the same rules to e-scooters. There seems to be a fascination with claims that all e-sxooters are ridden by feral yoofs. If they were regulated (i.e. CBT-style training day, helmet with identifier being awarded on completion, payment taken for 3rd party insurance) then it would be easier to spot who is an illegal 40mph death-yoof and who is compliant.

top-of-the-range 40-50mph models on cyclepaths

Again, any such monster would still be illegal under my proposal. They would need to be limited to 15 or perhaps 12mph with a sensible (yet useable) wattage. i.e. able to get up a decent hill without dabbing.

These are just my thoughts; I don't think any such thing would happen because the Gov/DVSA and anyone else involved in these things are too short sighted and too dependant on what significant shareholders and stakeholders have to lose financially.

 

[captain nemo1701]

I was not suggesting they be allowed on pavements

They are all over them. Judging by people brazenly ignoring the rules now, I don't think they'll follow any more. Plus, there are those who always find ways of cheating the system ie. adding more powerful motors. There are Youtube videos gleefully instructing people how to get around restrictions on a lot of things.

Yes, bikes are a menace on pavements, which is why I don't ride mine on them. But I now see way more escooters on pavements than bikes. I've had a few near misses, one time a guy came careering around a corner, almost out of control & I had to jump out of the way. On another occasion, when on the pedestrian-only bus stop platform in Old Market Bristol, I had to dodge an escooter riding along said ped-only platform:

I stepped out of the shelter to look down the road for my bus & a bloke shouted 'Look out mate!'. I turned to see a (hired) escooter being ridden behind me on the platform whereas the rider should have been on the road. These things should simply not be on pavements, but they are. I would encourage you perhaps to visit an area with an escooter scheme for a while unless you already do. In Bristol, you need eyes in the back of your head for them....everywhere you go.

They do seem predominantly a yoof thing. The bulk of people I see every day are in the 18-25ish group. And older people aren't necessarily more sensible. The Bristol hire scheme let any Tom, Dick & Harry with no experience or knowledge of road craft/rules out on motorised transport....oh joy!. Ever had an escooter come shooting along the painted left hand cycle lane the wrong way towards you?. WestScoot, the new firm, are apparently going to give users safety training.........so why didn't Voi do it?. A badly thought out scheme, rushed out by an incoming Govt in 2019 who thought 'Oooo...that'll be popular!'.

Fast escooters along with slower ones are illegal now, still out there getting used. Some people simply don't care & assume the rules don't apply to them (as a former Prime Minister thought). In fact, some people think they are already legal....Case in point was daft Bristol bloke I posted about a few weeks ago who had one confiscated by cops, so went out & bought a £3,500 model...only to have it confiscated. His 'excuse' was he was waiting for legalisation.

I've seen young kids on them. Shouldn't we be encouraging the next generation to exercise rather than use escooters?. The whole market for them is founded on speed & convenience ie. Go fast without any effort.

And following escooters, there's the e-skateboard lot (bloke with one in my local shop said his could do 25mph...that'll be fun on pavements) and the e-gyro wheelers (don't get me started on those!).

Our entire culture seems hard wired for avoiding any physical effort whatsoever. No wonder obesity is at record levels.

 

[captain nemo1701]

I think that's optimistic.

I saw somewhere (sorry, can't cite a source) a survey of use of a hire scheme (Bristol?) That found that e-scooter use was primarily as an alternative to walking, then as an alternative to public transport but rarely as an alternative to driving.

The bulk of users in Bristol are young, likely don't drive or own a car to begin with. They're the group more likely to walk or cycle anyway, its older people who drive that the scheme could target, but to no effect. We still have awful congestion despite nearly a few years of escooters.

 

[BoldonLad]

The bulk of users in Bristol are young, likely don't drive or own a car to begin with. They're the group more likely to walk or cycle anyway, its older people who drive that the scheme could target, but to no effect. We still have awful congestion despite nearly a few years of escooters.

don't know if this is applicable to all e-scooter hire schemes, but, thought that riders were supposed to be over 18, and, possess a driving licence ( a provisional is acceptable), with category Q ?

 

[Stephenite]

I was not suggesting they be allowed on pavements

They are all over them. Judging by people brazenly ignoring the rules now, I don't think they'll follow any more. Plus, there are those who always find ways of cheating the system ie. adding more powerful motors. There are Youtube videos gleefully instructing people how to get around restrictions on a lot of things.

Yes, bikes are a menace on pavements, which is why I don't ride mine on them. But I now see way more escooters on pavements than bikes. I've had a few near misses, one time a guy came careering around a corner, almost out of control & I had to jump out of the way. On another occasion, when on the pedestrian-only bus stop platform in Old Market Bristol, I had to dodge an escooter riding along said ped-only platform:
View attachment 709956

I stepped out of the shelter to look down the road for my bus & a bloke shouted 'Look out mate!'. I turned to see a (hired) escooter being ridden behind me on the platform whereas the rider should have been on the road. These things should simply not be on pavements, but they are. I would encourage you perhaps to visit an area with an escooter scheme for a while unless you already do. In Bristol, you need eyes in the back of your head for them....everywhere you go.

They do seem predominantly a yoof thing. The bulk of people I see every day are in the 18-25ish group. And older people aren't necessarily more sensible. The Bristol hire scheme let any Tom, Dick & Harry with no experience or knowledge of road craft/rules out on motorised transport....oh joy!. Ever had an escooter come shooting along the painted left hand cycle lane the wrong way towards you?. WestScoot, the new firm, are apparently going to give users safety training.........so why didn't Voi do it?. A badly thought out scheme, rushed out by an incoming Govt in 2019 who thought 'Oooo...that'll be popular!'.

Fast escooters along with slower ones are illegal now, still out there getting used. Some people simply don't care & assume the rules don't apply to them (as a former Prime Minister thought). In fact, some people think they are already legal....Case in point was daft Bristol bloke I posted about a few weeks ago who had one confiscated by cops, so went out & bought a £3,500 model...only to have it confiscated. His 'excuse' was he was waiting for legalisation.

I've seen young kids on them. Shouldn't we be encouraging the next generation to exercise rather than use escooters?. The whole market for them is founded on speed & convenience ie. Go fast without any effort.

And following escooters, there's the e-skateboard lot (bloke with one in my local shop said his could do 25mph...that'll be fun on pavements) and the e-gyro wheelers (don't get me started on those!).

Our entire culture seems hard wired for avoiding any physical effort whatsoever. No wonder obesity is at record levels.

Is that a bicycle lying on it's side blocking the pedestrian-only bus stop platform?

 

[classic33]

Is that a bicycle lying on it's side blocking the pedestrian-only bus stop platform?

Appears to be fastened to the sign, "for security", like the one in the bike stand missing its front wheel.

Both wheels are damaged.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Is that a bicycle lying on it's side blocking the pedestrian-only bus stop platform?

You sometimes do see bikes with a wheel missing locked to that sign but they often get removed quickly.