E-scooters to be allowed on public roads

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Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
Northampton were recently prosecuted for failing to identify a rider.
When a drunk car driver ploughed into my partner's garden wall, he refused to be breathalised. The Police arrested him on scene and despite video evidence of him fighting the neighbour to try to get his keys back, he was let off due to insufficient evidence that he was driving. The system fails with car drivers but that's no reason to not apply the system and processes IMHO
 
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captain nemo1701

captain nemo1701

Space cadet. Deck 42 Main Engineering.
Location
Bristol
Isn't it funny how a lot of people think it is OK to park where there are double yellow lines as long as you are inside the lines

In this case I believe that they are
a) parking on the pavement which is an offence
b) parking on a road with double yellow lines which is also an offence
c) being a bunch of prats - which is not an offence but sometime I think it should be

I said this before but on two occasions, I've seen SUV drivers pull entirely onto the pavement outside one of my local shops to park alongside double yellows. They seem to think its okay to occupy the whole pavement. And in this location, there is legal parking about 20m from the shop door, its just they're lazy and can't be bothered to walk a short distance.
 

BoldonLad

Not part of the Elite
Location
South Tyneside
As @Dogtrousers says, the system is based on ownership of the vehicle; also, if you move to a different county then you have to re-register the car and you get new plates; counties are fairly small here, so you wouldn't have to move far to need to change plate.

The system for small scooters is completely seperate though, and the plates are different, with a new colour for each year.



German insurance is for the vehicle, not the driver, so in the case of the van we use for work, I'm automatically insured. A certificate has to be carried in the car and produced if the police ask for it. Of course, if you can't produce a licence, the insurance is automatically invalid.

I'm not sure how this relates to motor scooters.

Ok. Understood. I hadn’t realised we had moved on to discussing insurance, I thought it was a discussion about identifying the “vehicle”, and, ultimately the driver/rider, in an incident or infringement.
 

BoldonLad

Not part of the Elite
Location
South Tyneside
Unlike the insurance racket that we have in this country, (fortunes spent on advertising instead of bringing down costs, stuffed meerkats and all that nonsense) many countries do have a state system that links the number plate to insurance, so the plate has to be renewed as proof of insurance. Probably a basic third party liability system with further cover available if the individual, or maybe employer or responsible person, wants to take it. All systems have their administrative issues and drawbacks but it works for them.

Sounds reasonable, even sensible, but, I wasn’t aware we were discussing insurance, I thought we were discussing identification of “vehicle” and driver/rider, in the event of an incident, which may not necessarily be an insurance issue. (Eg obstruction of pavement).
 

Alex321

Guru
Location
South Wales
Sounds reasonable, even sensible, but, I wasn’t aware we were discussing insurance, I thought we were discussing identification of “vehicle” and driver/rider, in the event of an incident, which may not necessarily be an insurance issue. (Eg obstruction of pavement).

You're not aware of how forums work then?

Threads almost always go off on tangents and side discussions by the time they are a couple of hundred posts in. As this one is.
 

Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
I said this before but on two occasions, I've seen SUV drivers pull entirely onto the pavement outside one of my local shops to park alongside double yellows. They seem to think its okay to occupy the whole pavement. And in this location, there is legal parking about 20m from the shop door, its just they're lazy and can't be bothered to walk a short distance.

Same with someone on our road, but he uses the whole pavement as his permanent parking space (i.e. every night and all weekend), his van also has an oil leak so the pavement is now black
 

Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
I think if private e-scooters were legalised, there would be far fewer dumped on pavements, as presumably the owner would not want them damaged or stolen. The issue of insurance I think is a grey area; they are as likely (in theory) to cause/create as many accidents as bicycles are so I'm not sure mandatory 3rd party insurance is required. This of course does not take into account the age/attitude of the rider, but a bicycle can also reach 30mph, go through red lights and be ridden by a clueless person in a hoodie with headphones on. The only difference I can see is the lack of stability on a scooter and stopping power relative to it's speed.
 

ianrauk

Tattooed Beat Messiah
Location
Rides Ti2
 

a.twiddler

Veteran
Sounds reasonable, even sensible, but, I wasn’t aware we were discussing insurance, I thought we were discussing identification of “vehicle” and driver/rider, in the event of an incident, which may not necessarily be an insurance issue. (Eg obstruction of pavement).

It would seem more likely that a hire escooter would be abandoned on the pavement, rather than docked, than a privately owned one where the owner might be more careful with it. As with conventional road vehicles, it is the law abiding owners who would get penalised if these became road legal, as they would be more likely to have some form of registration, licensing, and insurance so being traceable while the cheats and blaggers who already don't comply with conventional vehicles' legal requirements would just apply their philosophy to escooters.

While it seemed a wizard wheeze at the time to start trial hire schemes it must have been obvious that members of the public having seen them about and even tried them might have also seen them on sale on the internet and might have fancied one for themselves. With loose enforcement and apparent poor information on the restrictions applying to them, there are illegal private ones about so one can expect that if private ones were to become road legal many more illegally ridden ones would appear using the increase in numbers of legal ones as camouflage due to safety in numbers. Some kind of provisional system for identifying and regulating the sale could have been considered, eg registered dealers only, with the same requirements as hirers for sight of some kind of driving licence and insurance before being allowed to take it away. Presumably you can buy a car without any of this, even online, so maybe that ship has sailed already.

Short of electronically tagging the entire population, some kind of electronic marker, number plate, insurance and registration and the requirement to wear a BSI marked motorcycle -standard helmet (it's technically a motor vehicle) ought to bring home the concept that it's a vehicle, not a plaything. Similarly, the same powers to confiscate and crush your vehicle together with a hefty fine and points on your licence if it's not insured ought to act as some incentive to comply. The likelihood of this happening needs to be real enough, even if relatively unlikely, that potential buyers will take it seriously.

Maybe that all sounds a bit OTT, but either it's a motor vehicle, or it's not, it's either something that can only be used as part of a hire scheme or it's available to anyone to own as long as they comply with the rules, or it's not. Too much woolly thinking has led to the current situation, and it's possible now that the toothpaste is out of the tube it will be difficult if not impossible to get it back in. Just because most people are law abiding (if it's clear to them what it is) it doesn't stop the minority who aren't from carrying on as they like.

Whether the DVLA has the capacity to deal with the extra vehicles or not? Highly likely that it does, as it's just an expansion of the existing system, if escooters are to be seen as just another category of vehicle. Presumably the existing hire scooters are already somewhere on their database, with the registered keepers being the hire companies.

So, if the grey areas were to be made clearly black or white, if the police were to be given enough resources to exercise the powers they have already got, if anyone really cares enough to sort out the potential mess, maybe stop being so Anglocentric and see how other countries deal with the issues maybe there will be a clear cut solution to the situation.
 

Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
maybe stop being so Anglocentric
I agree, just googling it and found the following as an example:

Austria:
The use of e-scooters on the road is regulated by the Austrian Road Traffic Regulations (StVO).

Minimum age:

You must be at least 12 years old to ride an e-scooter independently on public transport.

In Austria, however, it is possible to obtain a "bike pass" from the age of 9, which also allows 9 to 12 year olds to ride an e-scooter independently.

Otherwise, children under 12 must be accompanied by a person aged at least 16.

Accompaniment is not required on playgrounds and residential streets.

Maximum speed: 25 km/h

The motor power must not exceed 600 watts.

Helmet: Helmets are compulsory for children under 12.

Where is it allowed to ride?

If there is a cycle path or cycle lane, you must use it.

If there are no cycle paths, you can use the road.

It is forbidden to use the pavement.

There are similar rules in lots of other countries, some stating that hi viz and helmet must be worn, others just advising it.

Perhaps a good idea would be to make them legal but also mandate helmets; the helmet could only be available from a training school (i.e. you'd have to do a mini CBT equivalent) and the helmet could carry some sort of identifier on the back. Much easier to spot illegal use then....no helmet, easier for Police to see and pull over, apply the same rules as if not wearing a seatbelt in a car, or if no compliances appear for that person after a police check then treat it as if driving with no license? Just my idea
 
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captain nemo1701

captain nemo1701

Space cadet. Deck 42 Main Engineering.
Location
Bristol
I think if private e-scooters were legalised, there would be far fewer dumped on pavements, as presumably the owner would not want them damaged or stolen. The issue of insurance I think is a grey area; they are as likely (in theory) to cause/create as many accidents as bicycles are so I'm not sure mandatory 3rd party insurance is required. This of course does not take into account the age/attitude of the rider, but a bicycle can also reach 30mph, go through red lights and be ridden by a clueless person in a hoodie with headphones on. The only difference I can see is the lack of stability on a scooter and stopping power relative to it's speed.

I see a bloke on my commute most days, he's riding a big private escooter wearing a full face motorbike helmet, gloves, knee pads etc.
That level of PPE isn't for a 15mph pootle....more like 40mph. We ban 30mph mopeds from cyclepaths, certainly don't need high speed escooters on them.
 

Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
I see a bloke on my commute most days, he's riding a big private escooter wearing a full face motorbike helmet, gloves, knee pads etc.
That level of PPE isn't for a 15mph pootle....more like 40mph. We ban 30mph mopeds from cyclepaths, certainly don't need high speed escooters on them.

Yes I agree and failed to point that out in previous posts. Regulation is key so any legal scooter would have to be limited in some way i.e. perhaps 15mph and a sensible wattage.

The only thing I don't agree on is the comparison with mopeds. They are much heavier (65-100kg not including rider) and while I'm not suggesting we allow mopeds on cycle paths, a restricted e-scooter would not be as much a danger IMO. I have been on cycle paths where loons on bicycles have been doing in excess of 30mph (Plymbridge woods in Plymouth if you've ever been)...so if we're debating the speed of e-scooters and the risk/forces in play then that could also be applied to bicycles for which there is no regulation
 

classic33

Leg End Member
I think if private e-scooters were legalised, there would be far fewer dumped on pavements, as presumably the owner would not want them damaged or stolen. The issue of insurance I think is a grey area; they are as likely (in theory) to cause/create as many accidents as bicycles are so I'm not sure mandatory 3rd party insurance is required. This of course does not take into account the age/attitude of the rider, but a bicycle can also reach 30mph, go through red lights and be ridden by a clueless person in a hoodie with headphones on. The only difference I can see is the lack of stability on a scooter and stopping power relative to it's speed.
They are classed are classed as ‘powered transporters’ and are treated in the same way as motor vehicles, so pavements and cycle paths are strictly off limits. In turn, for road use, they would have to meet the same requirements as cars and motorbikes and have the correct MOT, tax, insurance, licence and construction techniques.
There's already an insurance class for them, and category Q entitlement on your driving licence required to use those in the trials legally.
 
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Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
They are classed are classed as ‘powered transporters’ and are treated in the same way as motor vehicles, so pavements and cycle paths are strictly off limits. In turn, for road use, they would have to meet the same requirements as cars and motorbikes and have the correct MOT, tax, insurance, licence and construction techniques.
There's already an insurance class for them, and category Q entitlement on your driving licence required to use those in the trials legally.

ok, but I'm suggesting that e-scooters do not fit in to any class in the UK appropriately. As motor vehicles it is too harsh (insurance, tax and license). As motorcycles it is too harsh. Somewhere in between a bicycle (completely unregulated) and a moped would fit. i.e. restricted, training required, helmet and identifier required, 3rd party insurance. Pavements are already off limits for bicycles so nothing would change there. To make e-scooters a viable alternative to car ownership, I think you have to meet the users half way otherwsie it would not be an attractive enough proposal. The bigger picture is..they might well cause some accidents and result in fatalities, but all vehicles have their dangers both to the occupant and other people. It might well get 10% of cars off the roads in years to come which I expect would outweigh the increased numbers of series/fatal incidents from e-scooter use
 
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