E Scooters > on the road

[ebikeerwidnes]

Bit of a thread revival but just found this article about high street retailers selling escooters

clearly an 'ideal Christmas Present'

https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/09/reta...-e-scooters-on-british-high-streets-15743448/


so we can confidently expect loads more of them after Christmas

It really is about time the government got their finger out and did something about them - far too late now to just ban them

 

[Drago]

An ideal Christmas present...for those that like to commit road crime.

A lot of parents don't realise that there is an offence of "use, cause or permit", so as well as little Johnny getting a visit to the Magistrates whomsoever provided them with the vehicle can also get a guided tour of their own.

 

[mjr]

Has any government anywhere else done anything more than turn a blind eye?

Legalised as a new vehicle class in several countries, usually with power and speed limits and banned from footways. Summary from a few months back at https://futuraride.com/electric-scooter-laws-europe/

 

[Milkfloat]

As usual the government is massively behind the times and the cat is out of the bag, if the government had been proactive then they could be seen as a transport revolution rather than a dangerous kids toy. Our laws seem to lag behind reality quite a lot, I am sure most of remember using LED lights which although were significantly better than the filament bulbs they replaced were technically illegal, in fact the majority of lights on sale today are still technically illegal.

For me the solution is partial regulation. I would like to see minimum age, minimum wheel size, maximum speed and perhaps compulsory public liability insurance introduced. In addition allow riding on the road but introduce on the spot fines for inconsiderate/dangerous riding and actually enforce things.

As part of the Guide Dog family I know how blind people feel about e-scooters, but it is the riders who are the problem not the devices themselves. Most of the bad riding I see is teenagers and whilst my dog can cope with them, if I were blind and/or frail myself I would be rightly concerned too.

 

[KnittyNorah]

it is the riders who are the problem not the devices themselves.

As a person who, until 18 mo ago, had been resisting the issuance of a CVI for several years, I feel that electric vehicles of all types are inherently problematic in and of themselves, even with the most considerate and courteous of drivers/riders.

That is because of their silence.

Those of us in the VI community - of which I was a ember until less than 18 mo ago - are accustomed to depending to a very large extent, when out and about, to listening for sounds. We hear footsteps behind us, can often tell if a vehicle is accelerating as we hesitate in stepping out onto a pedestrian crossing, and although bikes ridden on pavements can be a menace - especially on shared pavements, which I feel are unfair to both pedestrians and cyclists - on the roads most cyclists will shout or ring a warning if we appear to be about to step out in front of them. They, along with motorcyclists, are much more aware of what and who is using the road around them, as they too have a considerable degree of vulnerability.

However, e-vehicles provide none of the clues as to their presence - and most important, of their approach - which an ICE vehicle provides ie a sound. Nor do they provide the sounds which a puffing panting runner behind emits, nor the clip-clopping of a horse's hooves, or the ringing of a bell from a cyclist, or a shout from the rider of either if a pedestrian is meandering ahead on a bridleway or other multi-use path.

Even the most cautious and considerate of riders/drivers of electrically-powered vehicles can't be expected to provide a constant rendition of 'She'll be coming round the mountain when she comes' or other suitable vehicular warning song, for the entirety of their journey - and for this I blame manufacturers, legislators and regulators, not the users of such vehicles. The 'legal' trial e-scooters are just as much of a menace to the blind and VI as are the illegal ones and although stable doors and bolting horses come to mind, the horses are eventually caught and returned to the stable, extra fastenings fitted and a gate put on the yard around the stable. So too can e-scooters be controlled by retrospective legislation, if there is enough will to do so.

 

[mjr]

That is because of their silence.

They are not silent. They are quieter but far from silent. My hearing is damaged but I can still hear the tyre noise and usually the motor whine of them. I think you'd need to be hearing-impaired as well as vision-impaired to think them silent and then you maybe need trained assistance anyway which hopefully you get.

It doesn't apply to legal e-scooters and my hearing is impaired but at higher speeds, almost all of what I hear from most modern cars or e-cars is tyre and wind noise, unless it's one of those compensation cars with deliberately noisy exhausts or engines. I often can't tell it's an e-car until I see the green badge on the number plate.

Those of us in the VI community - of which I was a ember until less than 18 mo ago - are accustomed to depending to a very large extent, when out and about, to listening for sounds. We hear footsteps behind us, can often tell if a vehicle is accelerating as we hesitate in stepping out onto a pedestrian crossing,

We should neither need to jump back for that, nor be expected to. Maybe it needs to become common for crossings to be monitored with sensors and ANPR to catch the scum who accelerate to scare pedestrians, before they hurt anyone.

and although bikes ridden on pavements can be a menace - especially on shared pavements, which I feel are unfair to both pedestrians and cyclists - on the roads most cyclists will shout or ring a warning if we appear to be about to step out in front of them. They, along with motorcyclists, are much more aware of what and who is using the road around them, as they too have a considerable degree of vulnerability.

So let's require e-scooterists to shout or ring a warning too, and reaffirm that a call or ring on a pavement only means "I am here" and not "get out of my way"?

Please let's not squander this opportunity to reduce noise pollution and make our towns and villages more peaceful, less stressful places by adding extra permanently-droning noisemakers to e-cars and e-scooters. It'll also make it easier for hearing-impaired people to distinguish sounds in speed-limited areas if there's less of a background drone from vehicles.

 

[Drago]

As usual the government is massively behind the times and the cat is out of the bag, if the government had been proactive then they could be seen as a transport revolution rather than a dangerous kids toy. Our laws seem to lag behind reality quite a lot, I am sure most of remember using LED lights which although were significantly better than the filament bulbs they replaced were technically illegal, in fact the majority of lights on sale today are still technically illegal.

For me the solution is partial regulation. I would like to see minimum age, minimum wheel size, maximum speed and perhaps compulsory public liability insurance introduced. In addition allow riding on the road but introduce on the spot fines for inconsiderate/dangerous riding and actually enforce things.

As part of the Guide Dog family I know how blind people feel about e-scooters, but it is the riders who are the problem not the devices themselves. Most of the bad riding I see is teenagers and whilst my dog can cope with them, if I were blind and/or frail myself I would be rightly concerned too.

Im sort of with you, but most of the legal ones ive seen hearabouts are being treated by the riders like kids toys, on the footway, through red lights, wrong side of the rkad against the traffic.

I suspect the problem is not so much the scooters, but that the great British public can't be trusted to behave themselves.

 

[DRM]

I think that the main problem is the type of people that buy them, are the same as those whose idea of fun is misusing quads on public roads, driving in an antisocial manner, cos it’s well good innit

 

[KnittyNorah]

easier for hearing-impaired people to distinguish sounds in speed-limited areas if there's less of a background drone from vehicles.

That's a very good point.

However, in my experience as a severely VI person - and with only normal age-related reduction in hearing - electric vehicles were effectively silent in comparison with 'normal' ICE vehicles, and I most certainly could indeed detect, by the engine noise of ICE vehicles, whether or not they are approaching, departing, accelerating etc.

The noise from a single ICE vehicle would drown out that from E vehicles on any road where there is more than one vehicle in movement, such that an E vehicle approaching from one direction, let alone the slight (and high-pitched!) whine from tyres of an e-2 wheeler on the pavement, was inaudible when there was any ICE traffic on the road.

In addition, when one is VI, very often active movement can be detected much more easily than actual 'things'. A pavement cyclist - however annoying and often dangerous - is a much more actively-moving 'thing', than is an e-scooterist standing on a platform doing ... nothing much other than travelling at speed, and the scooterist too often doesn't get picked up by those few poorly-functioning visual pathways which remain and which have just enough ability to pick up on the cyclist.

I don't know what the answer is to forcing riders, in general, to give way to peds on (undivided) shared pavements/paths, which let's be honest are most of them - by default if not in law. I dislike cycling even on 'official' shared pathways when they have any density of pedestrian traffic almost as much as I used to dislike walking on them with cyclists and e-scooterists who think they have the right of way, but perforce I sometimes must when the alternative road is too busy/narrow/fast/has no escapes.

 

[HLaB]

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/selfridges-criticised-for-selling-50mph-e-scooter-3491

What can go wrong

 

[classic33]

They are not silent. They are quieter but far from silent. My hearing is damaged but I can still hear the tyre noise and usually the motor whine of them. I think you'd need to be hearing-impaired as well as vision-impaired to think them silent and then you maybe need trained assistance anyway which hopefully you get.

It doesn't apply to legal e-scooters and my hearing is impaired but at higher speeds, almost all of what I hear from most modern cars or e-cars is tyre and wind noise, unless it's one of those compensation cars with deliberately noisy exhausts or engines. I often can't tell it's an e-car until I see the green badge on the number plate.


We should neither need to jump back for that, nor be expected to. Maybe it needs to become common for crossings to be monitored with sensors and ANPR to catch the scum who accelerate to scare pedestrians, before they hurt anyone.


So let's require e-scooterists to shout or ring a warning too, and reaffirm that a call or ring on a pavement only means "I am here" and not "get out of my way"?

Please let's not squander this opportunity to reduce noise pollution and make our towns and villages more peaceful, less stressful places by adding extra permanently-droning noisemakers to e-cars and e-scooters. It'll also make it easier for hearing-impaired people to distinguish sounds in speed-limited areas if there's less of a background drone from vehicles.

They're currently, and it doesn't look as though it'll be changed anytime soon, as road vehicles. Get them on the road, with all that's required to be using them there, not on the footpaths.
That'll not happen though, it's easier than walking, so they'll continue to use them on footpaths. "Roads are dangerous!". Aye, especially if you're going the wrong way on them, and not bothered about anyone else.

 

[DCLane]

Commuting out of Leeds on an evening since September the number of e-scooters on the pavement, cycle paths and roads is crazy. Most don't have lights in the dark and are weaving around, or going the wrong way against traffic.

The police don't seem to care - they weave in and around police officers and police cars with abandon.

I'm surprised less people are injured / killed by them, let alone the users.

 

[Arrowfoot]

It is excellent for inner city and urban use as well as last stage of commuting via train or car. However it will take time to pull together the necessary rules and regulations. Pointless rushing into a regime that will end up seeing repeated changes. Despite the current restrictions, you can see abuse and I am surprised that more have not been injured.

Minimum age, speed limits and insurance would likely to come into play. The biggest issues are riding on road and pavement. This will be hard to determine.

its no surprise that other countries are introducing incremental measures.

 

[Drago]

It is excellent for inner city and urban use as well as last stage of commuting via train or car. However it will take time to pull together the necessary rules and regulations...

...for riders to ignore.

 

[mjr]

It is excellent for inner city and urban use as well as last stage of commuting via train or car. However it will take time to pull together the necessary rules and regulations. Pointless rushing into a regime that will end up seeing repeated changes.

They've been on sale at least 20 years and pretty reliable for at least 6 or 7. The police have held crackdowns for 4. How long does it take to update the laws? And our lot have the nerve to call France's governance sclerotic!