Dutch Sustainable Safety in action

[srw]

But the suggestion is a silly one. Even without the door zone issue, the slowest cyclists should be, at the very least, at the edge of those lanes - and right out in the middle of the lane at the pinch point.

The paint would better have been expended decorating the carriageway with giant cycle icons, like you see in Central London.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I agree with the points about the cycle lanes being too narrow, and passing along the outside of car parking. Looking further back down the road, the door zone thing seems to be very common along there.

It looks quite similar to a lot of the cycle lanes we have round here which, based on experience, I think would be better removed altogether. However, much further back down the road I did notice an interesting difference compared to what we have here:

Notice that the bicycles have priority when the cycle lane rejoins. Here, there would be give way lines across the end of that cycle lane. Of course, this Dutch version would probably result in cyclists being hit by cars, buses and trucks if it were done like that in this country. It has much more to do with the culture than with the segregated facilities, especially in towns.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

The problem with your lanes, suggestion or otherwise, is that they instill belief in motorists that they are where we belong. This example being a run of the mill stupid one.

I might be inclined to change that slightly: "... they instill belief in British motorists that they are where we belong." I suspect the Dutch culture, supported by presumed liability as well as a clear will to prosecute drivers for dangerous behaviour around cyclists and press uproar* over the same, would result in a rather different outlook.

(*There was a good video showing a comparison between a Dutch case and UK ones, but I can't find it now.)

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Being a bit more positive, what do people think about this sort of thing:

http://g.co/maps/x7es2

I'd say it's awful, for all the reasons outlined above, and then some, but inspection reveals it is in Utrecht and therefore I must be wrong.

 

[Red Light]

I think fast cyclists would probably take primary on that road (and they're the ones most at risk from a serious dooring injury). It's a "suggestion" lane, so no obligation to use it (unlike normal Dutch bike lanes, which are in theory obligatory).

Dooring is one of the most common causes of serious injuries to cyclists - 8% of serious injuries in London and the fourth biggest cause of serious injuries. There is no excuse in saying it hopefully won't happen.

 

[GrasB]

I suspect the Dutch culture, supported by presumed liability as well as a clear will to prosecute drivers for dangerous behaviour around cyclists and press uproar* over the same, would result in a rather different outlook.

I went to the Netherlands to test ride a few recumbents. I was happily riding away until I decided to turn round & return to the shop as I was unsure of where I actually was (best to retrace my route while I could still remember it fully). Not being that well aquatinted with the machine I was riding I had little confidence pulling away so waited for the cars to pass before I pulled off. The last driver stopped & after a fashion asked if I was okay, she found it odd that I hadn't taken my priority on the road. I said I was just making sure I didn't ride off in the wrong direction - actually I just wanted to be behind rather than infront of the cars. Can you imagine a driver in the UK asking if you were okay for not pulling away at the first opportunity?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Brilliant! I've manged to get the BMAM frothing in rage at their keyboards which if nothing else is a result.

What is a BMAM? I'll guess MAM=middle aged man but otherwise have no clue.
The only froth involved was that on my flat white btw.

Some folk like cycling the way it is over here, some don't. I can't see that's any reason why we can't have a sensible debate about it without going off on one but there we are.

There you go again. The good old CEGB all-or-nothing our-way-or-the-highway binary mentality. Not (m)any of us on this thread who ride on the roads "like" cycling the way it is over here. We tolerate it, and refuse to be driven off the roads where we have the right to ride, and a lot of us try to change and improve things by campaigning, but because we don't agree that the CEGB dream is deliverable, we get accused of discouraging cycling!

If you want a sensible debate and want to promote seperate cycling infrastructure as a solution and means of encouraging cycling and increasing modal share then please:

Start or join a local cycle campaign group.
Start figuring out the costs of providing that infrastructure.
Start explaining how you will get it funded.
Start producing the drawings.
Start engaging with the people you actually need to influence (Clue: you won't find them in Cycling forums, they tend to hang out in Council Offices)

and when you've given up on that route, as I have, as utterly unimplementable in the current climate in most of England's green and pleasant land, cities, towns and villages, give us a shout and we will give you a few pointers on what is achievable by way of promoting cycling in your neck of the woods...

PS I rarely wear lycra and abhor hi-viz for it doth offend mine eye.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Can you imagine a driver in the UK asking if you were okay for not pulling away at the first opportunity?

No. But I recently had a car driver stop and ask me if I was ok, did I need a hand, did I have all the tools I needed.

The driver was a cyclist too. Most drivers in Holland are cyclists too.

 

[Glow worm]

and when you've given up on that route, as I have, as utterly unimplementable in the current climate in most of England's green and pleasant land, cities, towns and villages, give us a shout and we will give you a few pointers on what is achievable by way of promoting cycling in your neck of the woods...

PS I rarely wear lycra and abhor hi-viz for it doth offend mine eye.

Thanks Greg. I had no intention of falling out with anyone over this, being fairly new to this site and certainly this section of it. It's only my point of veiw after all. I didn't realise folks feel so strongly about a few cycle paths here and there!

I am only coming at this from the perspective of one who uses a bicycle more as a means of getting about for every day stuff rather than as an end to itself (weekend rides etc). I don't give a toss about who won the TDF last year and I don't really know my head sets from my bottom bracket. It's less about the bike, more the making the journey more pleasant.

My experience is that I generally enjoy cycling more, when I'm not being bullied by motorised traffic. I suspect that more dedicated cycle routes might just encourage a few more to ditch the Mondeo. My point is only that it seems to have worked pretty well elsewhere.

Coincidentally, I was reading about some place in London in today's paper that looks pretty good for all road users. I wondered what you or others who might know the area think of it. Is it more the kind of thing you fellas on here would be happier with ? (Its called Exhibition Road.) Anyway, it looks great to me, but then I did say I found the Netherlands to be brilliant and look where it got me on here!

The BMAM just means boring middle aged men (like me). ie the already converted. I'm more interested in getting those who currently wouldn't dream of doing so (perhaps because however mistakenly they perceive it as dangerous) to try cycling. Just ask your non-cycling friends what would encourage them to jump on a bike.

Right - I'd forgotten all bout this thread tbh until a little red thing appeared on the top right of the screen, so I'll leave you good folks to it and retire back my home ground, the slightly less bear pit environment of the cafe!

 

[snorri]

The good old CEGB all-or-nothing our-way-or-the-highway binary mentality.

I have to say your own mentality comes over in this thread as being remarkably similar to CEGB, only at opposite ends of the spectrum.
I just find it difficult to feel relaxed about people cycling, perhaps with children in a cycle trailer, along a dual carriageway shared with heavy goods vehicles and cars travelling at up to 70mph.
What do you consider achievable in order to ease my concerns in the case I describe ?

 

[slowmotion]

Glow Worm, you made some excellent points. Thank you. I too am an enormous admirer of the Dutch model. It's great to cycle in Holland and I really can't fault how it works there. I think it works so well because it is designed for huge numbers of ordinary people going at a steady pace. As others have said, the vast majority of motorists are cyclists as well and that helps enormously. I don't have much hope for the UK being able to go down that route though, alas.

BTW, when are you going back?

 

[Red Light]

I think it works so well because it is designed for huge numbers of ordinary people going at a steady pace.

So called "rolling pedestrians". Which makes it a pain if you want to go anywhere at a reasonable speed as most London cycle commuters seem to want to.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I have to say your own mentality comes over in this thread as being remarkably similar to CEGB, only at opposite ends of the spectrum.
I just find it difficult to feel relaxed about people cycling, perhaps with children in a cycle trailer, along a dual carriageway shared with heavy goods vehicles and cars travelling at up to 70mph.
What do you consider achievable in order to ease my concerns in the case I describe ?

Loads....

an alternative route on existing roads, with appropriate speed limiting and traffic calming reduction if needed, away from this hostile road? a reduced and enforced speed limit on the dual carriageway? other traffic calming and reduction measures? et cetera.

A seperate off carriageway cycle lane would have my support 100% on your road, and everywhere else these are proposed, if you can show it can be fitted in, you can show it can be funded from a diminishing pot of restricted resources, and you can show it has more than a snowballs chance in hell of getting built.

 

[dellzeqq]

Coincidentally, I was reading about some place in London in today's paper that looks pretty good for all road users. I wondered what you or others who might know the area think of it. Is it more the kind of thing you fella's on here would be happier with ? (Its called Exhibition Road.) Anyway, it looks great to me, but then I did say I found the Netherlands to be brilliant and look where it got me on here!

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/exhibition-road.92991/

And, sadly, it's come in for some serious sniping from the CEGBeebies. I like it, but, more to the point, I think it's great that it was tried out.

 

[snorri]

Loads....

an alternative route on existing roads, with appropriate speed limiting and traffic calming reduction if needed, away from this hostile road? a reduced and enforced speed limit on the dual carriageway? other traffic calming and reduction measures? et cetera.

A seperate off carriageway cycle lane would have my support 100% on your road, and everywhere else these are proposed, if you can show it can be fitted in, you can show it can be funded from a diminishing pot of restricted resources, and you can show it has more than a snowballs chance in hell of getting built.

Your first paragraph was seen as completely pie in the sky and not worth wasting time arguing about, the second paragraph was seen as a more practical solution and was achieved following much hard work by campaigners.
Anyway, it is good to see you are not entirely opposed to segregation in some situations.