dumbass LCC bike lane on Stratford High Street

[Dan B]

Here's that thought you don't want to understand, expressed succinctly by mjray: "putting forwards arguments that all cyclists should use the mixed lanes rather than building cycleways results in development of a dual network where mixed lanes are for the fast and the brave so cycleways don't need to be built to cope with fast travel because they're for slowcoaches."

I notice you've not quoted the part of mjray's post where he goes on to say he doesn't think that's what's actually happening.

 

[zimzum42]

Except by 'the road' we don't mean the M4. Although it has been rumoured the M4 is a road.

Anyhow, that was a rare case of an evasion of mjray's point that didn't involve rhetoric per se, only a weird redefinition of ordinary words.

If we were allowed on the motorways I would happily use them - as it is I have to use the A10 to get to Cambridge, which is OK, but if I could use the M11 I would

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

I notice you've not quoted the part of mjray's post where he goes on to say he doesn't think that's what's actually happening.

No, I read it. He says:

"I don't think that's what's happening. I think Pete Owens, DZ and other anti-infrastructure campaigners are a voice slowly dying on the margins. I think we get crap cycleways because it's cheaper to build crap, they look as good as proper ones to the casual observer in press releases and by the time the usage or crash stats show otherwise, the politician responsible will have moved up or out."

I think mjray is right in his alternative explanatory hypothesis- but that his second explanatory hypothesis in no way excludes the first. And the two work together rather nicely. Because as MrJay observed TfL get to cite the arguments of DZ and others every time they want to put in crap rather than put in wide lanes sufficient to all users fast and slow. They get to say: but we are only building this stuff for a small section of the cycling community.

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

If we were allowed on the motorways I would happily use them - as it is I have to use the A10 to get to Cambridge, which is OK, but if I could use the M11 I would

ha ha aha hahaha ha hhee haaa ha ha hhee haaa ha ha hhee haaa ha ha hhee haaa ha ha hhee haaa ha ha hhee haaa ha ha hhee haaa ha ha hhee haaa

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

Oh, I know this is all anecdotal and really you want some statistics from a report somewhere, but it's all I have.

Look, the stats are out there. If you want to stick with anecdote that's your business, but don't pretend anecdote trumps science. I can't spare the time to discuss all aspects of your story, but about the dutch riding crap bike- well, bikes with only a rear drum brake functioning are legal there because the infra is good enough to make using such safe.

 

[Dan B]

tl;dr Given that every previous attempt at veloduct-style seg infra in London has resulted in stuff that's a bit shoot, and that faster cyclists who want to get from A to B can already do it quite nicely using a combination of bus lanes, filtered permeability and just plain ordinary cycling-on-the-road, you're not really providing any compelling reason for any of them to support you in your quest to build more seg infra if you can't adequately explain why it won't be more a bit shoot all over again. Encouraging non-cyclists to take it up is great, don't get me wrong, but don't expect support from people already cycling if the most likely net effect is to make it worse for them.

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

Are you wanting people to take you seriously?

Yes. And also for them to laugh at things that are hilarious.

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

tl;dr Given that every previous attempt at veloduct-style seg infra in London has resulted in stuff that's a bit ****, and that faster cyclists who want to get from A to B can already do it quite nicely using a combination of bus lanes, filtered permeability and just plain ordinary cycling-on-the-road, you're not really providing any compelling reason for any of them to support you in your quest to build more seg infra if you can't adequately explain why it won't be more a bit **** all over again. Encouraging non-cyclists to take it up is great, don't get me wrong, but don't expect support from people already cycling if the most likely net effect is to make it worse for them.

*I* am a person already cycling.

 

[Dan B]

*I* am a person already cycling.

A sample size of one. What were you just saying about anecdote vs evidence?

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

Do let us know if you spot anything that falls in that category [of being ridicuolous] .

Will do- the habitual redefinition of the word 'road' to avoid facing up to a contradiction fits that description, as does the spectacle of various posters boasting about how much of the motorway network they have cycled on or plan to.

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

A sample size of one. What were you just saying about anecdote vs evidence?

If you say "don't expect anyone who already cycles to support this" then my own case becomes relevant as a falsification of your theory. As would xThousand LCC members. None of which is a 'sample size of one' because we are not talking about a survey. Learn the meaning of 'sample size'.

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

No contradiction here, just a childish attempt at petty point scoring on your point.

ha hahheee ha ha ha

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

Really? Why do you have no interest in any other part of this forum about riding bikes, and just confine yourself to this one issue?

ha ha ha

[man disagrees with me. therefore man is not cyclist.]

he he he hoo ho ho

 

[knocksofbeggarmen]

Exactly, you demonstrate my point perfectly.

You have a point? Possibly you've wrapped it in gaffer tape. What is your point? I mean, other than, you don't like being laughed at, specially when you are being ridiculous?

 

[w00hoo_kent]

Will do- the habitual redefinition of the word 'road' to avoid facing up to a contradiction fits that description, as does the spectacle of various posters boasting about how much of the motorway network they have cycled on or plan to.

I thought I'd read the whole of this thread, I didn't remember seeing anything about people boasting about riding on motorways. Agreed some I kind of skimmed as my eyes glazed over. Could you point the post out to me. Ta.