dumbass LCC bike lane on Stratford High Street

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knocksofbeggarmen

Active Member
I don't need to measure anywhere else to measure London, it is a simple matter:, do we have room for segregated facilities throughout?
My Gob is well and trully smacked.

Gent makes a point comparing x and y.
Suggestion is made about how to compare x and y.
Response: NO NO NO! The best way of comparing x and y is to 'compare' x and x.

Charitably, a non-standard use of the word 'compare'.
 

Pete Owens

Well-Known Member
Another website, same old misrepresentations from the same author. If you ride in MK, you do have to mix it with traffic because the cycle paths do NOT go everywhere. I know because I spent much of my youth riding the redways while they were still being built and I still go back to visit family.
Oh dear, yet another attempt to deny the existence of the redway network.
Just for reference - here is a map:
http://www.destinationmiltonkeynes.co.uk/upload/managerFile/Downloads/MK_Redway_Map_North.pdf
and if that is not extensive enough for you take a look at the other half:
http://www.destinationmiltonkeynes.co.uk/upload/managerFile/Downloads/MK_Redway_Map_South.pdf

Or perhaps try to use cycle streets to plan a route from the station to somehere else in the town:
http://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/42608802/
That was picked at random - I am sure if you take long enough you could eventually find an example that ventures onto a slightly busy road for a short stretch.

Now, whether this counts as comprehensive enough for you, it is certainly more extensive than anything that could possibly be retrofitted into a crowded city. And whatever the gaps or shortcomings you think the network has the fact remains that for the vast majority of the population pretty can reach much any destination within the town using cycle paths.

You can now avoid 60mph roads everywhere if you want, but you'll still be on crowded streets in the medieval town and a few 40mph distributor roads that the cycle maps forgot.
Indeed so - the only way to find the space for a network as comprehensive as that is building from scratch on geenfield sites. So the towns that predate the new town development retained the traditional street layout. However, this is another good opportunity to test the cycle-pathes-generate-cycle-traffic hypothesis. If there was any merit in the theory then it would show up in the census results with much higher levels of cycling in the new town than in the older areas of Newport Pagnel or Bletchley:
http://datashine.org.uk/#zoom=12&la...TTT&table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=YlOrRd

There are "very few cyclists" but it's still well above the national average.
Not according to the 2011 census
The redways are often bonkers, they have some basic design flaws (tight/blind corners, bad basic junction layouts, generally squeezed in as a secondary network)
You don't have to convince me that cycle paths are rubbish.
But as you rightly point out..
but they are still far better than most towns and cities have because nearly all of them are a decent width, they're machine-laid and attempts are made to put consistent direction signs on them.
Indeed so - so even given ideal conditions - with no constraints on space - which allows the development a comprehensive, signed, well surfaced network there is no effect whatsoever on cycling levels.
I think what it shows is that infrastructure is not sufficient:
Or rather cycle infrastructure has no effect whatsover
if you make cycling easy but motoring easier, then you'll still see more motoring than cycling.
Spot on - as you quite correctly point out what is needed to get people cycling is constraints on motor vehicles - not cycle paths. Remember that the original rationalle for cycle paths - and the reason traffic engineers are such enthusiasic proponents of them - is to prevent us slowing the flow of motors.
I don't think most lessons to be learned from MK's mistakes will be useful in many places - even in other new towns - because we don't build things like MK any more.
We most certainly do - just visit any modern settlement and see the segregated cycle paths that the planning requirements insist on..
 

Pete Owens

Well-Known Member
And that of course is indicative of every facility isn't it
Some roads are terribly planned. by that token should we share the other parts adjacent to said road as it makes everything easier?
Did you actually read the report?
http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/report/cycle-lanes.pdf
or even just look look at the pictures?

The road is not terribly planned (or at least it wasn't until someone painted a cycle lane on it) . And as cycle lanes go it is of a reasonable standard. It meets the standard of 1.5m which makes it as good as or better than most examples you see in the UK or in NL and doesn't have any particularly nasty features such as pinch points. Learningcurve suggested that there was some protection offered by drivers respecting the white line - it is reasonable to point out how much worse that makes things for cyclists.
 

Pete Owens

Well-Known Member
Explain hackney please what have they done?
Try reading these links to get the idea:
http://www.designcouncil.org.uk/news-opinion/how-hackney-became-london-s-most-liveable-borough
http://www.jmp.co.uk/forward-thinking/update/permeable-way-personal-view-cycling-infrastructure
http://cycleandwalkhackney.blogspot.co.uk/
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/london-cyclists-sharing-space-with-everyone-in-shoreditch
and it works:
http://datashine.org.uk/#zoom=13&la...TTT&table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=YlOrRd
Do you have children?
Ooooh, now this is starting to get personal.

Yes, two (indeed one of them features in that report on cycle lanes that you commented on)
The principle reason I got into cycle campaigning was from running a safe routes to school campaign. They needed to cross two A roads to reach the local primary school and the campaign was succesful in getting a pedestrian phase incorporated at the cross-roads. When I started cycle campaigning it soon became obvious that whenever we were asking to introduce measures to make the roads safer, the only things the council would countence were segregated facilities that made the roads more dangerous.
One of the problems with youngsters is who do they look to? When was the last time you did anything towards getting them off the sofa and outside?
and this is starting to get a tad offensive.
But, since you asked:

From when they were very young I introduced them to the outdoors life: (I took the eldest on her first camping trip at the age of 2 weeks). We went walking, scrambling, caving, climbing, backpacking, cycling - first in kiddy seats, then trailer bikes, then a cycle tour of the Hebredies on tandems, then mountain biking and road cycling. I taught them to cycle on the local roads - starting with the quiet road to the local park, but gradually building up to tackle the traffic lights mentionned above so they could cycle to school. Then onto roundabouts (there are a lot in Warrington) - and also the need avoid or at least to take extra care when using cycle paths due to the additional hazards they involve, and eventally onto the busiest junctions such as:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/search/bridge+foot/@53.3858168,-2.5897247,291m/data=!3m1!1e3
which they needed to tackle to reach their music lessons in the town centre. I also became a cycle trainer at the primary school before we managed to persuade the council to fund Bikability. I didn't provide a taxi service for their activities - they were normally expected to make their own way to guides, music lessons, parties and so on - so cycling became the key to their independence. We started orienteering and I was regularly driving minibuses full of the local juniors to training sessions for the NW squad - the youger one became good enough to compete for England at international competitions. To see some photographic evidence of our exploits take a look at:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/
Of course this is a while ago now. The older one now works in Manchester and comutes by cycle to the city centre. The younger one is a university in Sheffield, where he still orienteers, runs and goes for long cycle rides in the Peak District.

Is that good enough for you?

Sitting here crying you don't want this or that won't make one bit of difference
Unfortunately, arguing against the dangerous infrastructure tends to be difficult as the council can find plenty of non-cycling idiots who think it is a good idea. This is why we shifted the campaign to focus mainly on 20s plenty - which is having some success.
poring over dubious statistical data
Sorry, but the national census is not dubious - however much its results disagree with your pre-conceptions. Unless you are claiming that for some reason the cyclists of Skelmersdale systematically lied about their travel patterns.
or taking photos of how stupid councils are again will make no difference.
Actually, the photos really do make a difference - and have succeded in quite a number of the stupid facilities you are so keen on getting removed, in a way that writing long letters, or making serious representations to council officers failed.
 

knocksofbeggarmen

Active Member
what is needed to get people cycling is constraints on motor vehicles - not cycle paths

Will you please explain to me why, in that case, cities with the highest bike mode share in Europe have free parking in their city centres? Or why, if your attractive hypothesis had any basis in reality, it is cheaper to own and run a car in the Netherlands than it is here?
 

subaqua

What’s the point
Location
Leytonstone
rather than spunking money on segregation i would far rather it spent on education of road users ( including cyclists) and then if education fails punishment. I should be able to ride on most roads ( yes I know I can't on motorways or other roads with specific prohibitions) without the fear that I am going to be killed.
 

zimzum42

Legendary Member
Is this the Beggar Knocker's twitter profile?

https://twitter.com/AsEasyAsRiding

Seems some of us are gaining fame on the twattersphere...
 

zimzum42

Legendary Member
I asked him a question on Twitter but haven't received a reply - I guess I am being London-centric, but he would have us relegated to a glass filled green lane for the rest of our riding lives.

If his vision ever becomes a reality I fear for anyone who dares exercise their legal right to ride in main carriageway, it's highly likely we will be run off the road and be told that we should have been in the bike lane.

fookin' 'tard...
 
Did you actually read the report?
http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/report/cycle-lanes.pdf
or even just look look at the pictures?

The road is not terribly planned (or at least it wasn't until someone painted a cycle lane on it) . And as cycle lanes go it is of a reasonable standard. It meets the standard of 1.5m which makes it as good as or better than most examples you see in the UK or in NL and doesn't have any particularly nasty features such as pinch points. Learningcurve suggested that there was some protection offered by drivers respecting the white line - it is reasonable to point out how much worse that makes things for cyclists.


Pete, I found the report very interesting. Sorry if you've covered this already on this thread, but are you aware of any similar studies for rear lights that have 'laser lane' facility, where a red line shines either side of the bike?

Before reading the reports you linked, I considered them a good idea, now I'm not so sure.
 
OP
OP
dellzeqq

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Oh dear lord.... So, in order to support your assertion about London not having the space to incorporate Dutch provision, you propose comparing London with.... London. Obviously. How could I have been so dumb as to expect anything else.
we've issued a challenge before, and I'll issue it again. Show me a drawing. 1 to 1250 scale will do - as long as it is to scale. Last time we suggested the Angel Islington - but, whatever. Show me a drawing.

Oh, and Utrecht is horrible. But feel free to move there.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Oh dear, yet another attempt to deny the existence of the redway network.
Just for reference - here is a map:
Not at all. It was just a reaction to yet another attempt to assert that the redway network is complete and built as an equal-status network with the roads. It never was. Its roots in the motor-supermacist culture of the 1960s-1990s are very visible, such as the fastest road remaining level and/or having precedence at any crossing of a redway (at least until the mid-1990s).
Or perhaps try to use cycle streets to plan a route from the station to somehere else in the town:
http://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/42608802/
That was picked at random - I am sure if you take long enough you could eventually find an example that ventures onto a slightly busy road for a short stretch.
To somewhere avoiding all the old towns and even heading to the mainly-new-town east flank - yes, very random(!) Nothing to do with heading west from the station almost always routing you onto some small roads for part of the route through neighbouring partly-pre-MK Loughton? :laugh:

Indeed so - the only way to find the space for a network as comprehensive as that is building from scratch on geenfield sites. So the towns that predate the new town development retained the traditional street layout. However, this is another good opportunity to test the cycle-pathes-generate-cycle-traffic hypothesis. If there was any merit in the theory then it would show up in the census results with much higher levels of cycling in the new town than in the older areas of Newport Pagnel or Bletchley:
http://datashine.org.uk/#zoom=12&la...TTT&table=QS701EW&col=QS701EW0010&ramp=YlOrRd
Not "much higher" but it still looks higher to me - I think it's easier to see if you change the colour ramp to the blue/green one, but maybe you also need to know which of the parts labelled with the old town names are actually the old towns rather than the new-build infill. Is it possible to set the colour ramp to deemphasise the distortion from the bit of CMK? I don't remember much residential property there but it seems a high proportion ride - maybe downhill to the Elder Gate area which has Argos, Santander and so on.

Some parts of some of the old towns used to have famously high cycle-to-work levels, such as the railway and printing works in Wolverton and you can still see that legacy in its high-density town centre streets. I'm not sure whether Newport Pagnell had similar with the car works there - oh and Newport Pagnell isn't part of MK, although it's still under MK Council.

The other major confounding factor is walking to work. The redway network is also useful for walking, plus there's a greenway network, so what you find is above-average walking to work around major employment areas like CMK and Kingston and those are nearly all new town areas (NIMBYism of the old towns in the 1960s?)
Not according to the 2011 census
That's only travel to work, but still puts MK council area (including the rural-ish bit north of the M1) at 2.8% against a national average of 1.8% and higher than all but one of its neighbours. Meanwhile, the Active People Survey puts MK at 18% cyclist against a national average of 15%. It's no Cambridge (29% and 49% IIRC), or even a West Norfolk (4.7% and 20%), but it is still above the average.

Indeed so - so even given ideal conditions - with no constraints on space - which allows the development a comprehensive, signed, well surfaced network there is no effect whatsoever on cycling levels.
There were constraints on space because MK was a finite area of north Buckinghamshire designated for London overspill, constrained east and west by county boundaries, north by the M1 and south by politics. This led to the original redways being botched by compromises including giving priority to all-user roads and even houses over cycling, leading to mistakes like squeezing the grade separation through underpasses on tight corners - with the anti-social behaviour and fear of crime that eventually led to underpasses in other towns being filled in!

The original redways were woven in among grid, link and residential roads, giving way to all of them. What happened to the original redways was similar to what would happen if you tried to build a road network formed of only C and U roads. When the equivalents of B roads were added in the form of the 1990s grid redways, they either reused the bad underpasses (sometimes with remedial work to open them up) or more often, they crossed grid and estate link roads on the level.

I don't remember any A-road-equivalent redways in MK. Other than the lorry/people split in the city centre, I suspect there's no best practice showcase stuff in that city. There are elements of best practice, but more than an argument for constraining motoring, MK is really a great example of how shoddy compromises at junctions and so on can completely undermine a cycleway even if the bits in between are very good... so when a cycleway is built, it needs to be done properly throughout, else I'll join the anti-every-path crowd in saying it's worse than the road.

The London CS designers seem to acknowledge that junctions need provision, even if I don't think they've got them all right, but it's extremely unlikely that the new London CS routes will be as bad as MK. I know some people who have never lived in MK love to demonise it, but please be realistic. Personally, I sometimes wonder if designers and builders should be required to ride new cycle paths on a bike with impact-triggered explosives mounted around it so if they fall, clip a pole or barrier, or simply hit a lumpy section too hard, then, well, they won't make that mistake again! :laugh:
 
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