Duck race probability

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srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
infinitesimal
*ahem*
Very small. Infinitesimal has a precise meaning, and unless we're going into trans-finite arithmetic (clue - we're not) it's not appropriate.

I haven't been following the detail (I'd need a cold compress and a spreadsheet of my own, and not to have drunk some rather nice wine), but I suspect that what you collectively have shown is that the expected winnings are the same whether all five ducks are in one race or whether they're spread out across multiple races. But if your simplified example is indicative (the way you've constructed it makes me think it is) suggests that the variability of winnings is bigger if the ducks are spread out across multiple races. So if the target is to maximise your maximum possible prize pot then you should spread the ducks.
 
Very small. Infinitesimal has a precise meaning, and unless we're going into trans-finite arithmetic (clue - we're not) it's not appropriate.
Yeah. I know that. I first learnt about infinitesimals in (wait for it) Maths Camp.

I just like the word. Sue me.
 

Custom24

Über Member
Location
Oxfordshire
I think I see your error there. You are calculating the chances of winning exactly 1 heat. But the chances of winning at least one heat are in fact 5% (just add all the 1% together).

BUT if all your ducks are in one heat, you have 0% chance of winning 2 prizes, but if they are in separate heats you have 0.1% chance of winning 2 heats (1/100 * 1/100 * 10 combinations).

And of winning 3 is 1/100x1/100x1/100x10, .001%

And of winning 4 is 1/100x1/100x1/100x1/100x5 = 0.000005%

And of winning every race is .. 0.00000001%

So spreading the entries out gives you exactly the same chance of winning one prize and an infinitesimal chance of winning more than one.
The chance of exactly one duck winning is 4.803%. The 4.901% is this chance, plus that of exactly 2, plus 3 4 5

I don't think you can add up the 1% 5 times

Suppose you had 100 ducks in 100 heats of 100 ducks each heat. What would the chance be of at least one heat winner? It would not be 100%, but rather 1 - (0.99 ^ 100), about 63%
 

Custom24

Über Member
Location
Oxfordshire
*ahem*
Very small. Infinitesimal has a precise meaning, and unless we're going into trans-finite arithmetic (clue - we're not) it's not appropriate.

I haven't been following the detail (I'd need a cold compress and a spreadsheet of my own, and not to have drunk some rather nice wine), but I suspect that what you collectively have shown is that the expected winnings are the same whether all five ducks are in one race or whether they're spread out across multiple races. But if your simplified example is indicative (the way you've constructed it makes me think it is) suggests that the variability of winnings is bigger if the ducks are spread out across multiple races. So if the target is to maximise your maximum possible prize pot then you should spread the ducks.
No. I think I have shown, after a false start, that for greatest expected winnings, where there is a prize for a heat win as well as an overall prize, you should put all the ducks in a single heat. It doesn't matter the relative size of the prizes
 
OP
OP
helston90

helston90

Eat, sleep, ride, repeat.
Location
Cornwall
Well that escalated, I'm pleased I asked for assistance as I mulled it over, thanks all.

As it turned out none of my ducks won anything but the kids enjoyed cheering them all on at the beach in the sun and £1700 was raised for the Children's Hospice Southwest :smile:
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
Well that escalated, I'm pleased I asked for assistance as I mulled it over, thanks all.

As it turned out none of my ducks won anything but the kids enjoyed cheering them all on at the beach in the sun and £1700 was raised for the Children's Hospice Southwest :smile:

I'm glad you had a good time. Duck races are fun

I know it may take some believing, but doing the maths (or filling in numbers in a spreadsheet if you prefer) was fun too :okay:
 

Custom24

Über Member
Location
Oxfordshire
Well that escalated, I'm pleased I asked for assistance as I mulled it over, thanks all.

As it turned out none of my ducks won anything but the kids enjoyed cheering them all on at the beach in the sun and £1700 was raised for the Children's Hospice Southwest :smile:
Were there really 1200 ducks? I assumed it was a hypothetical example.:ohmy:
 
OP
OP
helston90

helston90

Eat, sleep, ride, repeat.
Location
Cornwall
Were there really 1200 ducks? I assumed it was a hypothetical example.:ohmy:
There really were - they sold out of ducks to sponsor in the end as they only bought in 1200 and they ran some tombola and things along side at the café

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swansonj

Guru
*ahem*
Very small. Infinitesimal has a precise meaning, and unless we're going into trans-finite arithmetic (clue - we're not) it's not appropriate.

I haven't been following the detail (I'd need a cold compress and a spreadsheet of my own, and not to have drunk some rather nice wine), but I suspect that what you collectively have shown is that the expected winnings are the same whether all five ducks are in one race or whether they're spread out across multiple races. But if your simplified example is indicative (the way you've constructed it makes me think it is) suggests that the variability of winnings is bigger if the ducks are spread out across multiple races. So if the target is to maximise your maximum possible prize pot then you should spread the ducks.

No. I think I have shown, after a false start, that for greatest expected winnings, where there is a prize for a heat win as well as an overall prize, you should put all the ducks in a single heat. It doesn't matter the relative size of the prizes
As @srw implies, we need to be very careful about the difference between winning exactly one heat and winning at least one heat.

Suppose you enter n ducks. Suppose there are y heats, each of x ducks. n<x,y

If you enter all your ducks in the same heat:

P(one of your ducks wins that heat)= n/x

P(one of your ducks wins overall)=n/x . 1/y = n/xy

If you enter one duck each in n different heats:

P(at least one of your ducks wins a heat)=1 – P(none of your ducks wins a heat)

=1 – ((x-1)/x)^n

=1-(1 – 1/x)^n

If x is large we can do a Taylor expansion

=1-(1 – n/x+ O(1/x^2))

=n/x- O(1/x^2)

So the chances of winning at least one heat are smaller if you enter one duck in each heat than if you enter all the ducks in the same heat, but by a term of order 1/x^2. So as x gets larger, the chances of winning at least one heat converge on the same value whichever strategy you adopt.

Consider now the expected winnings E, where the prize H for each heat = H.

If you enter all your ducks in the same heat:

E = P(one of your ducks wins that heat).H =H n/x

If you enter one duck per heat in n different heats:

E = P(one of your duck wins).H + P(two of your ducks win).2H + P(three of your ducks win).3H…

= n. 1/x. ((x-1)/x)^(n-1). H + n.(n-1)/2. 1/x^2. ((x-1)/x)^(n-2).2H + n.(n-1)(n-2)/6. 1/x3. ((x-1)/x)^(n-3).3H…

This is just a binomial distribution with n experiments and p, the probability of success in each trial, of 1/x. The mean of a binomial distribution is np or in this case n/x so the expected winning is Hn/x.

So the expected or average (mean) winnings are exactly the same whichever strategy you adopt. But if you enter one duck each in multiple heats, you have a slightly higher risk of not winning any heats, compensated by a non-zero chance of winning two or more heats; if you enter them all in the same heat, you have a higher chance of winning one heat, but, obviously, no chance of winning more than one heat.

No spreadsheets were harmed in the making of this public information post.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
The key to the problem, if you can't face the maths, is to realise that every duck has exactly the same chances* as every other duck, both in the heats and overall. So whether you've got one duck in one heat, or 5 ducks in 5 heats, or 5 ducks in 1 heat, or 298877 ducks in 947266 heats, the odds for each individual duck are the same. Which means that the average winnings for a specific number of ducks are the same however the ducks are distributed across however many heats. But as @swansonj points out, if you chuck all your ducks at one heat you are ruling out a certain number of possibilities and making it impossible for 5 ducks to win 5 heats and go up against each other in the final.


*Like everyone, I'm assuming that the ducks are IID (independent, identically distributed) variables - there's nothing special about any of the individual ducks, and they don't form teams to help the team GC duck win. Add that complexity in and you're in a whole different game.
 
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