Do spliffs facilitate carb replenishment?

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nigelnorris

Well-Known Member
Location
Birmingham
montage said:
I agree that alcohol is an extremely dangerous drug ..... and I have not suggested otherwise. But because alcohol is so dangerous, does this make less dangerous drugs such as cannabis acceptable? It isn't like I am encouraging people to drink alcohol, nothing of the sort. I have just stated my opinion that it is wrong to encourage people to take drugs, even if they are less harmful than others
You are [literally] many thousands of times more likely to hurt yourself [or someone else] riding a bike, skiing, mountaineering, or carrying out any number of other physically active recreational activities than if you just sit about and smoke a weed, take an acid, take a pill, or any number of other recreational drugs.

Why on earth should the people who do any of the former, who are damaging themselves and others, and costing the taxpayer a fortune on a measurable daily basis [read any accident stats you like], be allowed to judge those who do almost no damage to anyone [try and find a respectable survey on the subject of pot/lsd/ecstacy demonstrating actual physical harm - there aren't any]? OK cycling pays for itself, but you'll never convince me that skiing has any benefits to anyone other than the skiier, and that has a hideous accident/fatality rate. Why is it allowed? Because it is traditionally the recreation of the moneyed classes [in this country].

I'm all in favour of all of the above, personal choice - live and let live why not?
 
Exactly, cycling can be regarded as a leisure activity; so is drug taking.

Based on numbers of deaths, cycling is more dangerous than using either cannabis, pure MDMA or LSD.

However based on the same statistic, cycling is ALOT less dangerous than using alcohol and tobbaco.

On that basis it would be logical to think that cyclists would have quite liberal views on some illegal drugs (especially cannabis which has never killed anyone) but less liberal on legal ones. Yet on alcohol I bet their views are the opposite!

Although montage, I take the point that you don't like either legal or illegal drugs, with the exception of caffeine (which btw can and does kill people).
 
Why on earth should the people who do any of the former, who are damaging themselves and others, and costing the taxpayer a fortune on a measurable daily basis [read any accident stats you like], be allowed to judge those who do almost no damage to anyone
I think it goes deeper than that. It is a case of discrimination and persecution of a low risk minority by a high risk taking majority through punitive measures

Users of controlled drugs are the unspoken victims of an extreme, yet almost invisible, form of discrimination. The belief that some drugs are "evil" is pervasive, yet strangely absent when it comes to other equally or more harmful drugs approved of by the majority such as the drugs alcohol and tobacco. To put things into perspective, according to the UK National Office of Statistics in 2005, there were 6,627 alcohol-related deaths and 86,500 tobacco-related deaths, compared for example with 58 ecstasy-related deaths and 19 aspirin-related deaths. Yet it is ecstasy and not alcohol or tobacco which is most often referred to as a "killer drug" whilst a person sharing an ecstasy pill with a friend is committing a crime which carries a potential life sentence since this would legally be considered supply of a Class A drug. Although some argue that this disparity in the number of deaths is due to the fact that alcohol and tobacco are more widely used because of their legal status, this is not the case. In a factsheet on drug-related deaths issued in September 1996, the Institute for the Study of Drug Dependence (ISDD) compared the annual mortality rates for four different types of drugs, the reported mortality rates (as a percentage of total users for each type of drug) were 1.5% to 3% for opiate users, 0.9% for tobacco users, 0.5% for alcohol users, and 0.0002% for ecstasy users.
In March 2007, scientists, including members of the UK Parliament's top advisory committee on drug classification, published a rigorous assessment of the social and individual harm caused by 20 substances in a report entitled "Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse". The report rated most "illicit" drugs as far less harmful than the drugs alcohol and tobacco and called for an urgent review of the drug classification system which was deemed arbitrary.

mean_harm.gif


In January 2006 the then UK Home Secretary Charles Clark had made the following promise:
"… I will in the next few weeks publish a consultation paper with suggestions for a review of the drug classification system, on the basis of which I will make proposals in due course… one needs to proceed on the basis of evidence… I want to emphasise to the House the importance of evidence and research on this subject."​
Yet the promised consultation paper never materialised despite the following admission made by the Government in October 2006 in response to a report by the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee which questioned the criteria used for classifying drugs:
"The distinction between legal and illegal substances is not unequivocally based on pharmacology, economic risk benefit analysis. It is also based in large part on historical and cultural precedents [...] the Government acknowledges that alcohol and tobacco account for more health problems and deaths than illicit drugs." (Cm 6941, "The Government Reply to the Fifth Report from the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee Session 2005-6 HC 1031: Drug classification: making a hash of it?")​
The Government concluded at paragraph 12 of the above document that it "has decided not to pursue a review of the classification system at this time". In light of the fact that the drug classification system is arbitrary, the Government's decision not to fulfil on their previously promised evidence-based review is irrational. This effectively results in a form of discrimination on the basis of the majority's drug preferences. We call this "drug discrimination" – drugs which evidence suggests are less harmful are more tightly-controlled than drugs which evidence suggests are more harmful, ignoring science in favour of "historical and cultural precedents". This is contrary to the policy of the Misuse of Drugs Act, which seeks to use education, health and police power measures to prevent, minimise or eliminate risks that might result from activities with dangerous or otherwise harmful "drugs which are being or appear [...] likely to be misused and of which the misuse is having or appears [...] capable of having harmful effects sufficient to constitute a social problem".
The current legal situation is a clear case of majoritarian interests subjugating minority interests and bears striking similarities to other forms of discrimination which in the past were (and in some cases still are) enforced by law and largely accepted by society, such as discrimination on the grounds of race, sex, religion or sexual orientation. Additionally, the misclassification of various substances sends out incorrect signals about their relative harm, for example "magic mushrooms" for which there are virtually no recorded deaths are in the same Class as heroin and users are subject to the same criminal sanctions regardless of evidence suggesting that they are not even remotely equally harmful. Will the young person who has tried magic mushrooms with no adverse effects trust the Government's warnings on heroin?
The Drug Equality Alliance (DEA) are speaking out for the countless millions who suffer the denial of equal rights and equal protection with respect to their drug of choice. We are working to catalyse a paradigm shift towards evidence-based administration of drug law and towards a system which secures equal rights and equal protection for all those who exercise property rights in dangerous or otherwise harmful drugs. In particular we provide legal support and lay advice for those who are affected by the discriminatory administration of drug law and we are actively involved in legal challenges to the UK Government's maladministration of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.
This organisation was inspired by the legal arguments of Casey Hardison, currently serving a 20 year sentence in the UK for producing LSD, DMT and 2C-B (drugs which the evidence shows are less harmful to individuals and society than the drugs alcohol and tobacco). The length of Casey's sentence epitomises the draconian nature of UK drug laws especially when contrasted with the 15 years that can be expected for an "average" murder and the 5 years which can be anticipated for a rape where there are no aggravating factors. The legal cases now being assisted by the DEA are based upon Hardison's work as it develops with the legal research he undertakes. Casey points out in precise legal detail why the current administration of the Misuse of Drugs Act is in itself illegal, irrational and unfair, and his quest is to challenge his convictions though an articulate legal discourse and ultimately to end the "War on some people who use some Drugs". Casey has worked with the Drug Equality Alliance to further develop the legal arguments now being deployed by DEA member Edwin Stratton, Alan Taylor and founder DEA member and (non-practicing) lawyer Darryl Bickler.
The organisation accepts members who are prepared to make some donations or contributions to the cause. We wish to disseminate our ideas and do not protect our intellectual property although we ask you to consult us before using any of our materials.
http://www.drugequality.org/background.htm
 

montage

God Almighty
Location
Bethlehem
Riverman said:
Although montage, I take the point that you don't like either legal or illegal drugs, with the exception of caffeine (which btw can and does kill people).

I think there are two dangers with taking illegal drugs - health risks from the drug aside.

Firstly, you don't know what is in the drug, it could be 55% dandruff for all the user knows (I guess this is ruled out by the OP as he was sold them legally).

Secondly, "small/harmless" drugs can be a pathway to a dangerous main road. So long as the user sticks to the small pathway now and again, fine. But should the user get bored of these drugs, want more of a kick, then this is where the dangerous drugs come in.

Alcohol is a tricky one to discuss, as it is the biggest killer - perhaps because it is the most widely available. The problem with alcohol is that making it illegal would be impossible, people could veeeery easily brew their own. Also to make alcohol illegal, we also open up to the dangers of not knowing exactly what is in the drink etc.

Nicotine - by no means a directly "dangerous drug", but in the long run, causes HUGE amounts of damage and strain on the NHS... In my opinion, this should go into the "banned" pool - but the process of doing so would be impossible. To many people would break the rules, ciggerettes would still be too easy to obtain, government would loose huuuge amounts via tax...
 

onlyhuman

New Member
zimzum42 said:
weed isn't a drug, it's a plant

skunk is a drug, but weed's not

Nonsense. Anti-cannabis campaigners needed a reason to claim that cannabis has changed, to justify changing the law. So the "superskunk" myth was born, and you've fallen for it, along with every politician I know of, most journalists and many users.

The effects of the strongest "skunk" you can get today are no different to the effects of decent quality hashish from India. This is made using traditional techniques and plant varieties that haven't changed for centuries.

The superskunk lie has been a strikingly effective piece of propaganda. It allowed the UK government to ignore the advice of their own Advisory Committee on the Misuse of Drugs, and reclassify cannabis as more dangerous than it actually is.
 

zimzum42

Legendary Member
onlyhuman said:
Nonsense. Anti-cannabis campaigners needed a reason to claim that cannabis has changed, to justify changing the law. So the "superskunk" myth was born, and you've fallen for it, along with every politician I know of, most journalists and many users.

The effects of the strongest "skunk" you can get today are no different to the effects of decent quality hashish from India. This is made using traditional techniques and plant varieties that haven't changed for centuries.

The superskunk lie has been a strikingly effective piece of propaganda. It allowed the UK government to ignore the advice of their own Advisory Committee on the Misuse of Drugs, and reclassify cannabis as more dangerous than it actually is.
Dude, I've not fallen for anything, trust me, when not in Singapore I smoke a lot, and I used to grow too...

Whilst the idea of 'superskunk' may have some extra hype added to it, there are things out there which are adulterated with other stuff. You know when you get it, the bud is all hard and plasticky, sometimes it has strange dust on it, sometimes they spray the buds with chemicals to make you feel high when in fact it's really low grade bud.

What you say about skunk being stronger than indian hash or whaever is true, so long as you are buying good skunk though. Because it's criminalized however, there are people out there who are less than scrupulous and not in it for the love of the bud, they know there's money to be made, so they make low quality bud and add all sorts to it.

Sorry if my oversimplified statement was misleading, I was only referring to the addition of chemicals as opposed to the growing of a plant naturally, be that plant a hybrid or not....
 
montage said:
I think there are two dangers with taking illegal drugs - health risks from the drug aside.

Firstly, you don't know what is in the drug, it could be 55% dandruff for all the user knows

Exactly. A direct consequence of the 'illegatily of drugs'. The solution to this is to control and regulate their use, manufacture and supply. Handing the market over to organised criminals is what results in a more harmful product. I hold those in support of this 'war on drugs' as responsible for the prevalence of contamination, disease and death that results from this.

When alcohol was prohibted in America during the 20s/30s, people were dying and going blind from using moonshine, criminals were running the whole operation, America was awash with a contaminated alcohol product as there were no controls on manufacture, use or supply. Sounds familar doesn't it.

(I guess this is ruled out by the OP as he was sold them legally).
Unfortunately, cannabis is still illegal in Holland, a consequence of the impediment that is UN conventions on drugs, however it is tolerated. It's worth mentioning here that people use cannabis less in Holland, particuarly among the young.

Secondly, "small/harmless" drugs can be a pathway to a dangerous main road. So long as the user sticks to the small pathway now and again, fine. But should the user get bored of these drugs, want more of a kick, then this is where the dangerous drugs come in.
Is it? The gateway effect has been disproved so many times. Even if it were true, you are maximinsing the harms to users by making the drugs illegal. Anyway your argument makes no sense because alcohol is legal. Therefore that should be the gateway drug to everything. It's not rational to ban a some drugs because there are more harmful drugs.

Alcohol is a tricky one to discuss, as it is the biggest killer -
The biggest killer is tobbaco.

perhaps because it is the most widely available.
Cannabis, cocaine, crack cocaine, ecstasy etc etc are also widely available.

The problem with alcohol is that making it illegal would be impossible, people could veeeery easily brew their own.
The problem is there would be a massive crimewave and a regulated, controlled market run by companies would be replaced by a market run by violent criminals. There would be massive gang violence and many people would be killed. abit like the 10,000 people that got killed last year in Mexico last year over cocaine.

Besides, illegal drugs have never been cheaper, more available and stronger than ever for the price. And they've never been so popular! Making a drug illegal doesn't appear to have much of an effect on use, infact the reverse seems true.

Also to make alcohol illegal, we also open up to the dangers of not knowing exactly what is in the drink etc.
:ohmy:
Nicotine - by no means a directly "dangerous drug",
I'd rank it as probably the MOST dangerous. It's directly dangerous because it's the most addictive drug on the planet. It doesn't take long to get hooked and once hooked the chances are you will die a horrible slow early death.

but in the long run, causes HUGE amounts of damage and strain on the NHS... In my opinion, this should go into the "banned" pool - but the process of doing so would be impossible.
Indeed because again it would create another crimewave. We can place heavy restrictions on tobbaco, however these need to extend to developing countries where multinational tobbaco companies are exploiting people.

government would loose huuuge amounts via tax...
Then legalise the other drugs, particuarly the safer ones and tax them
 
What you say about skunk being stronger than indian hash or whaever is true, so long as you are buying good skunk though
'skunk' is just a strain of cannabis. There are about 1500 different strains, all with slightly different effects. Real 'Skunk', Skunk No1, isn't actually that strong. 'Skunk' is just a term that's been used by shitty dealers to describe sinsemilla.

The strongest form of cannabis should be hash and was in the 70s. However these days, hash is full of shoot! SOAPBAR cannabis contains all kinds of carcinogenic crap, like used petrol, plastic etc and about 1% low grade resin. This accounts for about 50% of the UK market.

All the result of prohibition! Not much of a effective health policy really making drugs illegal and criminalising people.
 

Rhythm Thief

Legendary Member
Location
Ross on Wye
Does anyone else really fancy a big fat spliff after reading all this? I know I do.;)
 

montage

God Almighty
Location
Bethlehem
Riverman said:
Exactly. A direct consequence of the 'illegatily of drugs'. The solution to this is to control and regulate their use, manufacture and supply. Handing the market over to organised criminals is what results in a more harmful product. I hold those in support of this 'war on drugs' as responsible for the prevalence of contamination, disease and death that results from this.

When alcohol was prohibted in America during the 20s/30s, people were dying and going blind from using moonshine, criminals were running the whole operation, America was awash with a contaminated alcohol product as there were no controls on manufacture, use or supply. Sounds familar doesn't it.

Unfortunately, cannabis is still illegal in Holland, a consequence of the impediment that is UN conventions on drugs, however it is tolerated. It's worth mentioning here that people use cannabis less in Holland, particuarly among the young.

Is it? The gateway effect has been disproved so many times. Even if it were true, you are maximinsing the harms to users by making the drugs illegal. Anyway your argument makes no sense because alcohol is legal. Therefore that should be the gateway drug to everything. It's not rational to ban a some drugs because there are more harmful drugs.

The biggest killer is tobbaco.

Cannabis, cocaine, crack cocaine, ecstasy etc etc are also widely available.

The problem is there would be a massive crimewave and a regulated, controlled market run by companies would be replaced by a market run by violent criminals. There would be massive gang violence and many people would be killed. abit like the 10,000 people that got killed last year in Mexico last year over cocaine.

Besides, illegal drugs have never been cheaper, more available and stronger than ever for the price. And they've never been so popular! Making a drug illegal doesn't appear to have much of an effect on use, infact the reverse seems true.

;)
I'd rank it as probably the MOST dangerous. It's directly dangerous because it's the most addictive drug on the planet. It doesn't take long to get hooked and once hooked the chances are you will die a horrible slow early death.

Indeed because again it would create another crimewave. We can place heavy restrictions on tobbaco, however these need to extend to developing countries where multinational tobbaco companies are exploiting people.

Then legalise the other drugs, particuarly the safer ones and tax them

Riverman said:
'skunk' is just a strain of cannabis. There are about 1500 different strains, all with slightly different effects. Real 'Skunk', Skunk No1, isn't actually that strong. 'Skunk' is just a term that's been used by shitty dealers to describe sinsemilla.

The strongest form of cannabis should be hash and was in the 70s. However these days, hash is full of shoot! SOAPBAR cannabis contains all kinds of carcinogenic crap, like used petrol, plastic etc and about 1% low grade resin. This accounts for about 50% of the UK market.

All the result of prohibition! Not much of a effective health policy really making drugs illegal and criminalising people.

What a waste of internet ink
 

montage

God Almighty
Location
Bethlehem
Sorry but I don't see the point in this thread... it is dead now. If those of you who want to debate and encourage the fact that taking drugs is a good thing really want to, then carry on....
 
If those off you who want to debate and encourage the fact that taking drugs is a good thing really want to, then carry on....
I'm off to grab a coffee, need something to wake me up a little. When I get home I might have a fat spliff to relax... (best to use a vapourizer instead of burning it though)

Actually I'm not a cannabis user, although I do appreciate that it has very legitimate uses and is used responsibly by a large number of people. Whether that makes it a 'good thing' is a matter of opinion.

I don't think it's a 'good thing' to criminalise people for these non violent acts, neither is it a "good thing" to encourage people to do so,, especially when there are people using more harmful drugs who don't face punishment (alcohol and tobbaco users) and who are even encouraged by society to use their drugs of choice!

Lastly I don't thinkn I've encouraged anyone to use illegal drugs during these posts. I have merely exposed the hypocrisy and absurdity of the status quo.
 

col

Legendary Member
I dont remember anyone mugging or breaking into houses to finance coffee or fags, even though nicotine is probably the most addictive substance. Now mugging for crack and similar drugs I have heard of.
On that sort of basis there are some things drug wise which need to stay illegal. But as far as a pint or a coffee or fag is concerned, they just dont compare to the problems with so called harder drugs.
Some people get violent after a few drinks, even after a spliff, but nowhere near to the numbers who do and then get violent to get what they need when they dont have hard drugs, so to compare fags drink and coffee to these is a bit over the top I think?
 
col said:
I dont remember anyone mugging or breaking into houses to finance coffee or fags, even though nicotine is probably the most addictive substance. Now mugging for crack and similar drugs I have heard of.
On that sort of basis there are some things drug wise which need to stay illegal. But as far as a pint or a coffee or fag is concerned, they just dont compare to the problems with so called harder drugs.
Some people get violent after a few drinks, even after a spliff, but nowhere near to the numbers who do and then get violent to get what they need when they dont have hard drugs, so to compare fags drink and coffee to these is a bit over the top I think?

People steal to fund crack cocaine and heroin habits. By making these completely illegal you firstly make the drugs very expensive for the users and you also make them associate with violent criminals to obtain their hit. You also criminalise the users.

Naturally, many then turn to crime to fund their habit. They become theifs or even prostitutes.

This is a bad way of dealing with it. Drug addiction is a disease. Both drugs should be available on prescrpition to known addicts as a medicine.

Take heroin. In the UK we have around 300 heroin deaths a year and 280,000 addicts roughly but only 200 people recieving heroin on prescription. Switzerland has had a prescription heroin programme for the last 15 years. During this time, there has never been a death from heroin use and there has been a significant reduction in associated crime. There have been similar results from a programme in British Columbia.

Crack cocaine is a very strong form of cocaine. It is a well known fact that the illegaility of drugs has overtime meant that drugs have become stronger. There is no control over this. By regulating drugs we can exercise control over their use, manufacture and supply.

By the way. People do not get violent when they're on heroin. It is simply not that kind of drug. It's when they can't it that they become violent. It is their inability to obtain heroin that leads to them commiting violence. Prohibitionists offer very ineffective solutions to this problem.

And as for cannabis. I've never known anyone to be violent whilst under its influence. Quite the opposite to be honest. Whereas I've lost count of the number of people even I know who lose their temper sometimes whilst under the influence of alcohol.
 
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