Disney's snow white comes under fire

[matticus]

Droplets of water carve their way through rock.

Sounds like quite a dull film

 

[yello]

Droplets of water carve their way through rock.

That would have been SO much better if you'd have added 'grasshopper'

 

[matticus]

Also, it's about widening what is available. It's fine to watch old films/books with male and female stereotypes as long as there are other films/books to choose from too.

Yeah.

And also, not every bit of new fiction/media has to be subverting conventions/stereotypes. It's good to celebrate those that break ground, but that doesn't make the conventional bad ; it might be that a writer wants to write about a particular thing, and that limits the subversion potential. e.g. if you've had a really mainstream upbringing, is it wrong to write a film or song about it? There might actually BE a woman out there who lived something like the Julia Roberts/Pretty Woman experience :P

 

[yello]

There might actually BE a (...) who lived something like the (...) experience

It's a good point. Some might look to art etc to lead rather than reflect (of course, both can be done at the same time by reflecting in a certain light) but one oughtn't maybe expect it.

I can only say with any degree of honesty those things that I find concerning; character portrayals, scenarios or otherwise. I can't speak to others. And then of course I have to acknowledge that I might even be missing the point entirely.

One of my favourite movies is a Peter Sellers film called 'Hoffman' ... and I am seriously uncertain about the roles in that. Some brilliant lines, with a genuine warmth, but my word it's on shakey ground!

 

[BoldonLad]

.......
bombarded with that kind of stereotype, I expect it would have a negative effect.
.......

My instinct is to agree whole heartedly with you, if nothing else on the basis that, generally, advertising works, otherwise business would not spend such large sums of money on it.

However, a little example from my life, sows just a tiny seed of doubt in my mind....

Briefly.. We have four daughters, the youngest daughter is adopted (at just before her second birthday). At age 4, she asked for a Nurses Outfit for Christmas. I did buy it for her, but, I also broached (gently) with her the subject of "why be a nurse, why not be the Doctor?". Her answer, at age 4, was "don't be silly dad, girls are nurses, boys are doctors". I was somewhat taken aback by this, what I saw as "conditioning" at such a young age. Subsequently, the years rolled on, all four are now adults, in their 40's (well, oldest has just tipped into 50's), and career/jobwise, the have become (in order, youngest to eldest), Care Worker, Civil Engineer, Maths Teacher, Nurse Practitioner.

I also have two sons by the way, there is a very wide disparity of "achievement" with them.

So, in my dotage now, I still think influences such as you describe are relevant, but... I feel there are other factors at play too .... all much to complicated for an old man like me.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Yeah.

And also, not every bit of new fiction/media has to be subverting conventions/stereotypes. It's good to celebrate those that break ground, but that doesn't make the conventional bad ; it might be that a writer wants to write about a particular thing, and that limits the subversion potential. e.g. if you've had a really mainstream upbringing, is it wrong to write a film or song about it? There might actually BE a woman out there who lived something like the Julia Roberts/Pretty Woman experience :P

One of the reasons we like films with stereotypes is that they are familiar and easy to digest. Not every film has to be challenging to watch; there's a certain amount of comfort to be had watching an old Western when you know John Wayne will always be the tough guy and put things right. You can create good films and books without heavily relying on old tropes about sex and race though. Enchanted is a great modern Disney film that reinvents the traditional Princess story without laying it on with a trowel.

My instinct is to agree whole heartedly with you, if nothing else on the basis that, generally, advertising works, otherwise business would not spend such large sums of money on it.

However, a little example from my life, sows just a tiny seed of doubt in my mind....

Briefly.. We have four daughters, the youngest daughter is adopted (at just before her second birthday). At age 4, she asked for a Nurses Outfit for Christmas. I did buy it for her, but, I also broached (gently) with her the subject of "why be a nurse, why not be the Doctor?". He answer, at age 4, was "don't be silly dad, girls are nurses, boys are doctors". I was somewhat taken aback by this, what I saw as "conditioning" at such a young age.

The earliest thing I can recall reading was a comic called Teddy Bear. I would be 4 or 5 I reckon. It had a regular strip called 'Nurse Susan and Dr David'. They ran a doll's hospital. I can't remember TV shows that had women as doctors, or indeed male nurses, before the mid/late '70's.

Still, the girl bringing the sick doll is driving a sports car not pushing a pram, so that's something I guess.

 

[BoldonLad]

....
The earliest thing I can recall reading was a comic called Teddy Bear. I would be 4 or 5 I reckon. It had a regular strip called 'Nurse Susan and Dr David'. They ran a doll's hospital. I can't remember TV shows that had women as doctors, or indeed male nurses, before the mid/late '70's.

View attachment 587433

Don't want to bang on about this, so, last comment, daughter was born 1976, so, 1980 would be the era.

 

[Saluki]

As a child, the first "real" book (ie, one without pictures) I remember reading was called "Coral Island". It was an adventure story about three young sailors, who were shipwrecked on a Coral Island (hence the title). Many, many years later, when my first grandson was approaching the age to read "real" books, I decided I would try and buy him a copy. I did actually manage to find a copy, but, all of the potentially un-PC bits had been taken out (there was mention of canibals, and, there was a "man-Friday" type character similar to Robinson Crusoe, all of which had been removed). The story was completely spoiled, so, I binned it and bought him something else, recommended by my son.

I loved Coral Island, as a kid.

 

[BoldonLad]

I loved Coral Island, as a kid.

Me too, I even remember the names of the characters, "jack", "Peterkin" and "Ralph", when I have reached an age that I cannot remember why I went up stairs

 

[AuroraSaab]

Don't want to bang on about this, so, last comment, daughter was born 1976, so, 1980 would be the era.

Just shows how persistent stereotypes and societal expectations are, I guess. My daughter has always loved Art. However she did really well in all her GCSE's, including Science. We were a bit surprised her school, which is very academic, didn't suggest she do Science A levels. I think if she was a boy they probably would have. We suggested it but after consideration she decided she would enjoy the arts stuff more, which is fair enough.

We are all heavily socialised about this stuff from the minute we are born, it's near impossible to detach yourself from it. The best you can hope is that your kids approach it all with a critical eye and don't swallow all the nonsense we are surrounded by.

 

[Blue Hills]

What's your take on things like Batman, Spiderman etc, they're clearly fantasy but do you think kids will grow up thinking

careful - you'll drag me back to my curious childhood interest in batwoman.

 

[Deleted User]

careful - you'll drag me back to my curious childhood interest in batwoman.

Not Eartha Kitt surely?

 

[Blue Hills]

Not Eartha Kitt surely?

can't remember - i didn't study cast lists - would have been the 60s - why do you ask?
edit - yep probably was.

 

[Chris S]

What's your take on things like Batman, Spiderman etc, they're clearly fantasy but do you think kids will grow up thinking if a radio active spider bites them they'll suddenly be able climb walls and swing from the ceiling?

Yes - when I was a child I used to put a pair of pants on over my trousers, tie my coat arms around my neck to make a cape and pretend to be Superman. I even jumped off a wardrobe on to a bed to see if I could fly.

 

[Deleted User]

Yes - when I was a child I used to put a pair of pants on over my trousers, tie my coat arms around my neck to make a cape and pretend to be Superman. I even jumped off a wardrobe on to a bed to see if I could fly.

Bet you don't do it now though, which is my point really.