Disney's snow white comes under fire

[Deleted member 1258]

my first real book / book was Cider with Rosie , taught me a lot

I was brought up on the Janet and John books.

 

[DaveReading]

Cider with Rosie is Janet and John in their teens.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Dread the day when the next generation end up reading sanitised and politically correct books, TV programmes etc. No more Enid Blyton and Gypsies on horse drawn wagons.

To kill a Mocking Bird and Shipping News both Pulitzer Prize winning novels, 33 years apart will end up as tokens by skeptics and not for the literary value, social and personal issues that it addresses. VS Naipaul works will be doomed while we debate if Superman, Batman are fair representation of society and it matters little they are were and are fantasies out of cartoons.

 

[MartinQ]

I'm a big fan of all the Disney princess films. Sure, there are problems with all of them; I was criticising the editorial standards of the Daily Mail, which are woeful.

Sure, it wasn't meant to be a "direct reply". I think they're ok. Snow white was certainly impressive for its time and like lots of things dated in some ways, but its enjoyable. Better than song of the south, ...

 

[matticus]

my first real book / book was Cider with Rosie , taught me a lot

Call that a real book? THIS is a real book:

(I found that here, possibly the best URL ever: https://www.artofmanliness.com/ )

 

[winjim]

Dread the day when the next generation end up reading sanitised and politically correct books, TV programmes etc. No more Enid Blyton and Gypsies on horse drawn wagons.

To kill a Mocking Bird and Shipping News both Pulitzer Prize winning novels, 33 years apart will end up as tokens by skeptics and not for the literary value, social and personal issues that it addresses. VS Naipaul works will be doomed while we debate if Superman, Batman are fair representation of society and it matters little they are were and are fantasies out of cartoons.

I tried reading my wife's favourite old Enid Blyton book to our then 4yo and it was awful. Not just racist, although it was racist, but really badly written. It was like when a young child has that sort of imaginative verbal diarrhoea and it all comes out with no coherent structure, no filter, nothing. I doubt even the best editor could have pulled something decent out of that fetid pool of bilgewater. Blyton would be no great loss to the literary world.

As for comics, didn't we start this thread discussing fairy tales? Stan Lee's got you covered.

 

[matticus]

Not just racist, although it was racist, but really badly written. ... imaginative verbal diarrhoea ... fetid pool of bilgewater. Blyton would be no great loss to the literary world.

Gosh, to think how many were force-read these over the years.

All those millions of children, enjoying bad books because Winjim wasn't around to tell them how awful the writing was, how fetid the stories. Kids don't know how lucky they are these days!

 

[Chris S]

I tried reading my wife's favourite old Enid Blyton book to our then 4yo and it was awful. Not just racist, although it was racist, but really badly written. It was like when a young child has that sort of imaginative verbal diarrhoea and it all comes out with no coherent structure, no filter, nothing. I doubt even the best editor could have pulled something decent out of that fetid pool of bilgewater. Blyton would be no great loss to the literary world.

As for comics, didn't we start this thread discussing fairy tales? Stan Lee's got you covered.

View attachment 587387

I didn't realize what Enid Blyton books were like until I saw a Comic Strip parody of them, "That man looks foreign, let's call the police!"


View: https://youtu.be/3PdKP5Y6-5U

 

[matticus]

I passed Eng Lit "A" level by watching CH4 parodies of classic novels - no need to read the bloody things.

(BTW - I'm not denying the racism in those books! But you won't learn much about books just by watching TV comedies ... )

 

[CanucksTraveller]

I was having an interesting conversation along these lines with my daughter just recently... she developed an interest in Tintin a little while back and she started collecting the books because she loves the art and the storylines. Now, anyone who knows about Herge will know that the first say, 3 to 4 books were largely propaganda pieces, and viewed through modern and more enlightened eyes, 90 years later (and if you remove the context), some of them certainly have a whiff of imperialism. A couple of the books are probably outright racist in the depiction of a whole nationality, the Japanese in particular are painted in a bad light in "The Blue Lotus" because the invasion of China had only happened the previous year. The historical context is so, so important to understand the zeitgeist of the day.

But the canton developed into one of the most classic "young teen as Indiana Jones" kind of adventures, and they still have merit. So I was keen that she read them, but equally keen that we had that conversation, that they were "of a time", having been written in the late 1920s, 1930s onwards, and they were very much worth reading so long as you had your eyes open to that. We carefully discussed the context of the books, how it's useful in allowing us to compare the 1930's world with today's, and how we learn and grow as time moves on. She understands it very well and finds the changes in attitudes really enlightening.

My point is that banning or censoring books, comics, Disney films or whatever can stunt our learning about how attitudes can change. I don't think it's good to ban, censor or change historical publications, they should be available to be analysed and discussed, that's the way we learn.

 

[AuroraSaab]

My main issue with old Disney films is that they promote the stereotype of a girl/woman having to be rescued by a bloke. But why wouldn't they? They are based on 400 year old European fairy tales, and were mostly made 60 - 80 years ago. Of course they are going to be 'problematic' to modern eyes.

I do think the whole Disney Princess thing is a bit damaging, but they have moved away from that in recent years and the female leads are pretty independent, diverse, and kick ass these days. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the old films. Just see them for what they are - period pieces - and make sure your kids grow up to be self-sufficient rather than thinking anything in the movies is real life.

Without getting into a repeat of the Hereronormative thread, I'd rather the social justice warriors stuck up for women who are trying to preserve single sex refuges, prisons, hospital wards etc. rather than moaning about an 80 year old film.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I was having an interesting conversation along these lines with my daughter just recently... she developed an interest in Tintin a little while back and she started collecting the books because she loves the art and the storylines. Now, anyone who knows about Herge will know that the first say, 3 to 4 books were largely propaganda pieces, and viewed through modern and more enlightened eyes, 90 years later (and if you remove the context), some of them certainly have a whiff of imperialism. A couple of the books are probably outright racist in the depiction of a whole nationality, the Japanese in particular are painted in a bad light in "The Blue Lotus" because the invasion of China had only happened the previous year. The historical context is so, so important to understand the zeitgeist of the day.

But the canton developed into one of the most classic "young teen as Indiana Jones" kind of adventures, and they still have merit. So I was keen that she read them, but equally keen that we had that conversation, that they were "of a time", having been written in the late 1920s, 1930s onwards, and they were very much worth reading so long as you had your eyes open to that. We carefully discussed the context of the books, how it's useful in allowing us to compare the 1930's world with today's, and how we learn and grow as time moves on. She understands it very well and finds the changes in attitudes really enlightening.

My point is that banning or censoring books, comics, Disney films or whatever can stunt our learning about how attitudes can change. I don't think it's good to ban, censor or change historical publications, they should be available to be analysed and discussed, that's the way we learn.

I love Tintin. More the artwork than the storylines, which don't always flow very well. They reflect their time though, as you say.

 

[MichaelW2]

Children's literature a good stepping stone for new writers like Meghan Markle to test the waters before writing real books. A children's book inspired by the relationshop between Harry and Archie is sure to appeal to a new generation educated in emotional intelligence and correct ideas.

 

[HMS_Dave]

I've always been suspicious of Mr Tickle myself...

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I've always been suspicious of Mr Tickle myself...