mjr
Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
- Location
- mostly Norfolk, sometimes Somerset
I agree, but unfairness doesn't normally stop laws applying.
Cycling laws to be overhauled.
- Thread starter Slick
- Start date
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stoatsngroats
Legendary Member
- Location
- South East
The change of laws appears to me to be an ‘after the fact’ issue, ie. when injury or death has been caused, and following the high profile case regarding a woman’s death highlighted that there is no cycle specific provision of prosecution, which should be updated imo.
Regarding further changes, to provided improved prosecution for other contraventions, whether these could be policed or not, that is a good thing too, and we should all be made to be responsible for our actions.
If we don’t have the correct amendments, this doesn’t mean that the whole enterprise is futile, merely that the voice of the cycling fraternity is either too quiet, incoherent in message, or being ignored, neither of which is visible here.
Whether those who have the opportunity to make changes to these laws have the correct message, it is up to each of us to make sure they are sufficiently well inform d by us, as cyclist, and CyclingUK amongst others have been shown t have a voice.
Will anyone here be writing to there MP?
Regarding further changes, to provided improved prosecution for other contraventions, whether these could be policed or not, that is a good thing too, and we should all be made to be responsible for our actions.
If we don’t have the correct amendments, this doesn’t mean that the whole enterprise is futile, merely that the voice of the cycling fraternity is either too quiet, incoherent in message, or being ignored, neither of which is visible here.
Whether those who have the opportunity to make changes to these laws have the correct message, it is up to each of us to make sure they are sufficiently well inform d by us, as cyclist, and CyclingUK amongst others have been shown t have a voice.
Will anyone here be writing to there MP?
classic33
Leg End Member
Mine wants cyclists removing from the roads. Would there be any benefit in writing to her?
stoatsngroats
Legendary Member
- Location
- South East
Well, of course, because without any critique from you, she will continue in her belief!
If others within her constituency also bothered, them maybe she could become informed.... isn’t this what a democratic right exists to achieve?
OneArmedBandit
Active Member
There are lots of theoretical provisions for getting points knocking around in legislation but they generally used in specific, rare ways.
The purpose of S146 was to allow courts to apply disqualifications for offences that would attract disqualifications if a motoring offence was charged, but an alternative offence was prosecuted. For instance, there was one near me recently where a driver drove through a road closure and abused paramedics. He was charged with a public order offence but also received a three month driving ban under S146 provisions.
Punishments are prescribed by law for a reason and magistrates have to have a solid reason to use S146, which effectively can only ever be an alternative charge would have attracted a ban. "We don't like cyclists", "I saw a wobbly cyclist with no lights one evening", "We think drunk cyclists are just as dangerous as drunk drivers" - all would be easy to appeal against.
classic33
Leg End Member
She's well aware of what her viiews on cycling are doing. They've even spread to the local council. All new local cycle provision since she came in, has been off-road. As are all planned works until 2023.
She's also aware of my views on where cyclists belong. A legal right to use the roads, and she's against that. We, cyclists, slow traffic down which isn't acceptable. Solution, get us off the roads.
stoatsngroats
Legendary Member
- Location
- South East
But that’s not what this thread is about, it’s about the laws regarding prosecution following an act causing injury or death, whilst using a bicycle.(sorry, I’ve just re-read the thread title! My bad! )
OneArmedBandit
Active Member
@stoatsngroats You should point them in the direction of my council which has an excellent mix of off and on road cycle provosion.
In fact, by ambitious use of dropped kerbs they usually switch cycle lanes between the pavement and road every twenty metres.
In fact, by ambitious use of dropped kerbs they usually switch cycle lanes between the pavement and road every twenty metres.
The consultation can be found here
https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...-causing-death-or-serious-injury-when-cycling.
It talks about an offence of dangerous cycling and another of careless or inconsiderate cycling of which the legal profession are no doubt rubbing their hands on the amount of money they can make arguing what is or is not careless or inconsiderate cycling - … but Mr Defendant you should have realised the pedestrian might suddenly change direction and walk out in front of you and you were consequently cycling in an inconsiderate manner...
https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...-causing-death-or-serious-injury-when-cycling.
It talks about an offence of dangerous cycling and another of careless or inconsiderate cycling of which the legal profession are no doubt rubbing their hands on the amount of money they can make arguing what is or is not careless or inconsiderate cycling - … but Mr Defendant you should have realised the pedestrian might suddenly change direction and walk out in front of you and you were consequently cycling in an inconsiderate manner...
stoatsngroats
Legendary Member
- Location
- South East
I’m happy with my local cycling provision, and it’s improving really well, nearby, 5 miles opened recently, beside the A259, and linking two conurbations really well, and being well used by a wide range of cyclists.
Whilst this improvement has taken a decade or more, things have changed a lot, and these improvements allow cycling between Littlehampton and Chichester, almost completely on segregated paths.
I think classic33 was the one having the issues with his local MP!
OP
OP
Slick
Guru
I think I'll need to complete that form but it may take a while.
OneArmedBandit
Active Member
Except in a desperate push that cycling must have "equivalence" with motoring they have forgotten a key idea.
Careless and dangerous driving are when driving falls [far] below the standard of a careful and competent driver.
That's all well and good in the highly regulated world of driving and it's not difficult to imagine that the line is pretty much "if you had done this in your driving test, would you have failed".
In cycling there isn't that line. It is probably fair to say that an experienced cyclists travels faster and takes more risks than an inexperienced cyclist, yet is less likely to have an accident. Which one is careful and competent? Is Chris Froome, who I am sure in training goes at speeds that would involve new shorts for me, more or less careful and competent? Is my Mum careful and competent because she never gets about 7mph?
If you can't decide what standard you are judging against you are left with things like going through a red light, or having a dangerous bicycle, most of which already have provisions. And the CPS will go to those rather than a law full of holes. It is much easier to prove an objective fact, than convince someone to form a subjective opinion about objective facts.
However, it will get Daily Mail readers incontinent with excitement, just as when they announced everyone hogging the middle lane would be fined. Didn't happen. No appetite for arguing wooly offences unless it's for a big issue. This will not affect 99.99999% of cyclists at all.
The worrying things is the question of who gets to judge your bad cycling. A driver is in front of a jury full of drivers thinking ‘that could be me in the dock’ a cyclist would have a jury full of prejudices before the trial starts. I don’t see a huge need to focus all this effort on bad cycling, after all Charlie Allison is doing time under existing laws. I am not against a dangerous cycling law, but would rather the governments limited ability to focus on a topic was on spent on the real dangers on the road.
