OldGreyBeard
Active Member
I was only talking about the risks faced by pedestrians when they cross a junction rather than suggesting that walking is always a substitute for cycling. Mind you it is in a great many small towns.
Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling
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I was only talking about the risks faced by pedestrians when they cross a junction rather than suggesting that walking is always a substitute for cycling. Mind you it is in a great many small towns.
MrHappyCyclist
Riding the Devil's HIghway
- Location
- Bolton, England
True enough.
I do agree it is ridiculous that pedestrians are allowed to cross the road without wearing flourescent jackets and helmets. It's so dangerous!
OldGreyBeard
Active Member
London is not the only place to consider and this thread does seem to be draw heavily on the London experience which is not necessarily representative of the whole country.
Where I live, Leighton Buzzard, you can't travel more than abut 2 1/2 miles to school as you would run out of town. Some children do come in from the surrounding villages which would be up to 5 miles away.
The vast majority of children could walk to school and quite a few do but there are still alot brought by car which causes quite a few problems.
There are 8 Lower schools (R to year 4), 4 Middle Schools (year 5 to 8) and two Upper schools (year 9 to 13) so as you get older the chances are that you will have to trael further as there are fewer schools to choose from. There is no shortage of spaces.
However, children do not necessarily go to the nearest school as parents can express a preference and this year at least everyone got their first choice.
My daughter will start Middle School in September and will swap a 10 minute walk to school for a 30 minute one. It would obviously be quicker if she cycled, accompanied, but it isn't really viable as the cycleways only allow cover about 1/2 the journey with gaps at both ends and in the middle so we would end up walking quite a bit.
The solution will be to walk with her and then cycle back until she can walk on her own or with friends. The cycleways would need to be extended at least to cover the gap in the middle before my wife would be happy to let her cycle.
My general point is that a great many children want to cycle & them & their families would benefit if they did but even in a medium sized market town where the traffic conditions do not approach the awfullness of London parents cannot be persuaded that it is safe enough.
Even adults cannot be persuaded to cycle to the station to commute to London and about six times as many drive & pay for the priviledge of parking.
OldGreyBeard
Active Member
Do you not remember those public information films about wearing something white at night?
It is dangerous crossing the road even on a Zebra. I regularly have cars failing to stop even when I'm well onto a Zebra crossing and they have had several hundred metres to see me in broad daylight.
MrHappyCyclist
Riding the Devil's HIghway
- Location
- Bolton, England
I'd put that in with TfL - they spent years working on the scheme only to receive knock-backs from the boroughs. But, yes, I'd agree with you entirely if you're suggesting that the scheme is breaking new ground. Mad as the bikes are I think that they make utility cycling more desirable.
My perception is they are doing more than that and although they are only a small (5-10%) of cycling journeys in London, they are changing the face of cycling in London. Traffic acts more cautiously around them because of their perceived "novice might so something silly" image (much the same happened with DublinBikes apparently) which is making drivers more aware of cyclists in general. Also they seem to be engendering a view that cycling is possible by ordinary people and I am increasingly seeing a more Dutch style of cyclist around - of which my lady in the floral dress yesterday was just an example. I gather quite a few London based Boris Bike users have gone out and bought their own bikes since.
The Message to Melbourn from Dublin Bikes is an interesting video - wish we had politicians like that.
I have a friend trying to set up something for the Martlets ride - but I'll stick to Floreana, thanks!
Blimey!
Well, that's all good stuff. I don't know about you, but, for me, the striking thing about the hire bike riders is how many of them are smiling!
OldGreyBeard
Active Member
That is probably down to Bikeability. My 2006 edition only has three references to children:
1. Watch out for them crossing the road
2. Watch out for them as "they can cycle very erratically"
3. Put them on a tandem
To return to the original assertion that "Cyclecraft is destroying UK cycling", I think that is rather too strongly put.
I do think Cyclecraft is helping to maintain cycling in the ghetto by raising a higher barrier to starting.
The joy of cycling is the "get on and go" quality coupled with the freedom it brings. It seems to me that cycling has been put into several ghettos: sports, off road, leisure & commuting rather than just being seen as a way of getting around.
The Dutch & Danes in particular seem to emphasise that cycling is basically an extension walking for most people rather than as an activity requiring special training, special clothes, special bikes etc etc.
In many ways Cyclecraft is in the same category as proposals for bike registration, compulsory bike insurance and so on in that it is a constraint to cycling rather than a promoter.
I do think the techniques described in Cyclecraft have kept cycling in the game but I don't think they can be the way forward.
What concerns me most is that Cyclecraft is often quoted as the only way to cycle and John Franklin seemingly tries to prevent segregated measures being built.
If we had the levels of cycling here seen in Denmark or Germany I for one would not be unhappy for Cyclecraft to be seen as one of the reasons for that. The thing is we don't and I don't think we will unless and until we get the infrastructure that the majority are willing to use.
Mad at urage
New Member
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- Just N of Cardiff
Agreed, but this very freedom means that many cyclists are untrained and have no idea how to keep themselves safe, nor how they should interact with other road users. This lack of knowledge and the resulting poor riding gives ammunition to such anti-cycling diatribes as may be seen here http://www.ukpoliceo...erous-cycling/.
Cyclecraft provides that information and makes it available to anyone who will seek it there. The IAM provides similar information of course, to those who prefer to go to a motoring organisation for advice on how to use the roads. The more widely such information is available, the better prospects of getting more people on bikes.
Far from "destroying" UK cycling, Cyclecraft is responsible for making responsible road use, including safe positioning, more easily understood (except by some
) and legally acceptable.OldGreyBeard
Active Member
Agreed, but this very freedom means that many cyclists are untrained and have no idea how to keep themselves safe, nor how they should interact with other road users. This lack of knowledge and the resulting poor riding gives ammunition to such anti-cycling diatribes as may be seen here http://www.ukpoliceo...erous-cycling/.
Cyclecraft provides that information and makes it available to anyone who will seek it there. The IAM provides similar information of course, to those who prefer to go to a motoring organisation for advice on how to use the roads. The more widely such information is available, the better prospects of getting more people on bikes.
Far from "destroying" UK cycling, Cyclecraft is responsible for making responsible road use, including safe positioning, more easily understood (except by some
Perhaps that is why so many leisure cyclists put the bikes on the back of the car and drive to the safe place to cycle and why so many people ride on the pavements.
By getting bikes to behave like cars it seems to me we have finally ceded the road to them because we let them set the rules. As for primary position, it doesn't work reliably as there are too many red mist drivers out there who absolutley must get past regardless of the risk and it is totally unsuitable for children.
More importantly they don't spend all their time presenting it as an extreme sport requiring special protective equipment (hi-viz, helmets) and being isolated from "dangerous" traffic. Copenhagenize reported that Denmark saw the first ever fall in cycling in decades when helmets started to be promoted for safety a couple of years back. If you continually hark on about the dangers (which are in reality miniscule) its hardly surprising that people decline to participate.
If nothing else, Cyclecraft is helping ensure motorists are at least aware of cyclists on the road and learn to deal with them which would not happen if we all cowered in the gutter or hid away on segregated cycle lanes.
You have a better way to cycle on our roads? I mean our roads as they are rather than as you would like them to be in some future. Perhaps you should write a book about it to remove the Franklin monopoly.
Those cycling levels existed in Denmark, the Netherlands and Germany before they built their segregated cycle paths and did not increase after they were built - they were high already. So what makes you think, even if we could build them here, that the effect would be to raise cycling levels when it hasn't elsewhere. The DublinBikes scheme has done much much more to increase cycling in Dublin than their building a 200 mile Strategic Cycle Network across the city that resulted in a 15% drop in commuter cycling and a 40% fall in student cycling. Its because the DublinBikes, like the Boris Bikes, make people realise that cycling is possible by ordinary people just like them and not just an armoured elite of extreme danger junkies.
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