Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[OldGreyBeard]

I was delighted to see today a young lady on a sit up and beg bike with basket cycling down Piccadilly in London wearing a summer frock and no helmet and riding in the primary position.

That's what we need more of. Stuff the HiVis & Lycra! I bet the motorists noticed her

 

[stowie]

That's what we need more of. Stuff the HiVis & Lycra! I bet the motorists noticed her

Are you suggesting that we should all wear frocks to get noticed by motorists? I think I might cut quite a dash...

 

[OldGreyBeard]

Are you suggesting that we should all wear frocks to get noticed by motorists? I think I might cut quite a dash...

Now there's an idea!

 

[dellzeqq]

I somehow feel that no one could answer your questions to your satisfaction. Not even the number one cycleway designer in the Netherlands whoever he or she is.

you could try.........

 

[stowie]

Now there's an idea!

So after 44 pages, one initiative that we can all agree on. All cyclists should wear light summer frocks.

At least all that time reading and participating in this thread hasn't been wasted.

 

[OldGreyBeard]

you could try.........

Not now. I haven't the time as I'm on an evening ride for a cycle campaign mtg in a pub.

 

[blockend]

I was delighted to see today a young lady on a sit up and beg bike with basket cycling down Piccadilly in London wearing a summer frock and no helmet and riding in the primary position.

So that's alright then. The nation's cyclists can rest easy because someone spotted Joni Mitchell on a Batavus.

 

[blockend]

Any thread where the words 'myth' and 'segregationist' are thrown around with such ease is going nowhere. A straw man fakenger will be along soon.

 

[Red Light]

I come back to my main point: How do you get more schoolchildren cycling? I don't think this is possible to any great degree using on road cycling in most towns & cities. Their parents will simply not let them do it.

Urban planning. ~ 90%* of children living within a mile of school walk or cycle there. That's the same as do so in the Netherlands**. The trouble is that UK children live on average much further from school than Dutch children and the percentages drop off in both countries as the distance increases. So "Their parents will simply not let them do it" is simply wrong.

* 82% Primary, 93% Secondary Walking to School Fact Sheet, ONS/DfT 2008
** 85% averaged Childstreet; Delft, 2005.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Pity the poor pedestrian who has to watch out for cars all the time! Perhaps they should wear HiVis....

and don't forget helmets!

If it's intended to be a serious comparison, as a pedestrian it would take me 6 or 7 hours to make the round trip to work and back at a brisk walking pace. (Though my arthritic hip would cause me to give up long before that.) I make the round trip by bicycle in 1hr 45mins; much longer than that and I would start seriously looking at using the car again. Hardly a sensible comparison.

 

[Red Light]

But no reason for not implementing something as sensible as cyclepaths having priority over side roads. I don't think the attitude of motorists in Copenhagen is any better than the UK. Their standard of driving isn't magically higher than ours. As you say it is a question of legal and cultural norms - both can be changed. Culturally things can change quickly with the correct nudges in the right direction.

When I see cyclists in Copenhagen, they still approach side roads with some caution, but expect traffic to yield. Somewhat like we do with sideroads into main streets - carry on but be aware that there is potential danger.

Doesn't typically work for pedestrians who already have priority over cars turning in to a side road (HC Rule 170). Didn't work in London where they put Give Way lines across the segregated cycle lane at Byng Place after a number of accidents and near misses with cars turning across it. Have a look at the "Looked but failed to see" problem of cycle paths at junctions. The Danish research concluded that the only viable way to solve it was to mix cyclists back in with the traffic.

 

[Red Light]

The Yorkshire Bombers gave the biggest boost to cycling this country has ever seen, although that was part of the unheralded bus lane revolution. Ken Livingstone wasn't particularly interested in cycling when he put in bus lanes, but, whatever his intentions, it worked. So - if we consider organisations it's

1. TfL
2. Al Quaeda
nowhere - the rest

Boris Bikes are doing a pretty good job or have you got those in with TfL and its bus lanes?

 

[stowie]

Urban planning. ~ 90%* of children living within a mile of school walk or cycle there. That's the same as do so in the Netherlands**. The trouble is that UK children live on average much further from school than Dutch children and the percentages drop off in both countries as the distance increases. So "Their parents will simply not let them do it" is simply wrong.

* 82% Primary, 93% Secondary Walking to School Fact Sheet, ONS/DfT 2008
** 85% averaged Childstreet; Delft, 2005.

I agree that the distance to school makes a difference. Overall only 48% of primary children walk to school, 43% are driven, so combined with your statistics this means an awful lot of primary children attend school more than a mile away. This is less to do with urban planning than government policy. Since "choice" was given to parents as a school selection system instead of distance from the school it means that people can end up ferrying children miles when a school is almost next door. The fact that London is woefully short of places at the moment in general also means that those in the London area may find themselves with school places miles away.

 

[stowie]

Doesn't typically work for pedestrians who already have priority over cars turning in to a side road (HC Rule 170). Didn't work in London where they put Give Way lines across the segregated cycle lane at Byng Place after a number of accidents and near misses with cars turning across it. Have a look at the "Looked but failed to see" problem of cycle paths at junctions. The Danish research concluded that the only viable way to solve it was to mix cyclists back in with the traffic.

Seeing as the paper costs $41, I will take your word for it!

My experience of Copenhagen is that giving way works for them. It may not work for us since motorists aren't conditioned to do so. Having a solitary give way is going to cause confusion. On the pedestrian right of way, one of the many interesting things about living in my area of London is how many cars actually do give way and how many pedestrians assume equal priority on side-road junctions. It is as if the junction is treated as shared space with pretty much equal priority given to all users. Clearly this isn't the case for all motorists and certainly not the case for all areas. I guess the point I was making was that there is nothing special about Danish drivers - they simply are used to doing something our motorists don't need to do. And the occasional give way section isn't really going to help make the give way to cyclists habitual. In Copenhagen the segregated paths are treated more like an extension to the road-way than the footpath. It would be absurd to have give ways to minor roads on the on-road cycle lanes we have in London, and I expect that the Danish see it the same way with their cycle lanes, even though they are separated from the motor lane.

I think bus lanes are the cyclists best way to get infrastructure in London. They are now relatively accepted and afford a reasonable space to cyclists with limitations on traffic interaction. I seem to recall much wailing and gnashing of teeth by motoring in general when bus lanes were being introduced, but the world didn't stop, and bus lanes seem to be the only recourse to moving tarmac away from the private car.

 

[dellzeqq]

I think bus lanes are the cyclists best way to get infrastructure in London. They are now relatively accepted and afford a reasonable space to cyclists with limitations on traffic interaction. I seem to recall much wailing and gnashing of teeth by motoring in general when bus lanes were being introduced, but the world didn't stop, and bus lanes seem to be the only recourse to moving tarmac away from the private car.

having just been to a £25000 party and drunk my fair share, I can only agree.............