Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[Richard Mann]

It is quite likely (though I do not have scientific evidence) that a big part of the problem is that most people who think about it at all believe cycling, and particularly expansion of cycling, is about families with 2.4 children going out on a Sunday afternoon for a leisurely ride, and can hardly even conceive of the idea of using a bicycle to get from one olace to another. It would seem that planners particularly share this view, which is based on their assumptions and prejudices rather than evidence..

An equal problem is that a lot of cycle campaigners think a 10-mile commute by bike is normal: it isn't.

Look at the beginning of Cycling in the Netherlands - it has useful splits by distance, journey purpose. 70% of all trips are under 5 miles, and about 85% of cycle trips (and that's in a country with decent long-distance cycle tracks). Commuting accounts for 17% of trips, education 9%. Shopping accounts for 20%, visiting and socio-recreational 14% and 12%.

The key target group is short trips about town. What such cyclists want is continuity of facility and slow traffic. A lecture on how to handle speeding traffic is irrelevant. A fanciful notion of completely rebuilding roads to provide segregation is irrelevant.

 

[srw]

Try cycling on the road along Bloomsbury segregated route along Torrington Place in London. I now have to exclude that whole road from my cycling in London.

I do it frequently, and always ride in the road on Tavistock place. Across 14 years of doing so I've been harrassed about three times.

 

[dellzeqq]

An equal problem is that a lot of cycle campaigners think a 10-mile commute by bike is normal: it isn't.

I'm afraid that there's some justice in this. Whatever we think I doubt that we're ever going to see mass commuting over six miles, and maybe not over four. The virtue of CS7 is that it picks up areas like Tooting, Balham and Clapham which are seven to five miles from the West End and the City.

Again - our problem is that, as a nation, we're stretching commuting distances, along with shopping distances. We're building dormitory suburbs on the outskirts of medium sized towns and still giving permission for retail sheds and superstores with huge car parks.

I'm not sure how big a deal the 'get on the cycle path' thing is. I may have been fortunate, but I don't hear this a lot. Taxi drivers on Battersea Bridge give it a go, and it's happened to me in Milton Keynes but I can't recall being told to get on the cycle path at Tavistock Place or on Southend Road near Catford. The Daniel Cadden case brought forth all kinds of assurances from the DfT that they had no intention of ever making cycle path usage mandatory, although there's always the possibility that some maverick MP might try and force the issue.

 

[Dan B]

I'm not sure how big a deal the 'get on the cycle path' thing is. I may have been fortunate, but I don't hear this a lot. Taxi drivers on Battersea Bridge give it a go, and it's happened to me in Milton Keynes but I can't recall being told to get on the cycle path at Tavistock Place or on Southend Road near Catford

My experience matches yours except when I am accompanying a slower cyclist and moving at "pootle" pace: I think that cyclists moving at or around the same speed as traffic simply don't get that advice.

 

[mark barker]

My experience matches yours except when I am accompanying a slower cyclist and moving at "pootle" pace: I think that cyclists moving at or around the same speed as traffic simply don't get that advice.

Thats a key issue, and one that was made many pages ago.... Cyclecraft works fine for cyclists that can move at the same speeds as the traffic around them. But, if you're a rider that goes along at 6 or 7mph it doesn't. For these cyclists the cycle lane/path makes far more sense. I doubt theres many folks on this forum that ride at those kind of speeds, but there are plenty of them out there in the real world, and their needs and safety have to be considered too.

 

[jonesy]

My experience matches yours except when I am accompanying a slower cyclist and moving at "pootle" pace: I think that cyclists moving at or around the same speed as traffic simply don't get that advice.

My experience is very different: I get tooted, shouts etc probably monthly on my commute for my non use of a pavement (ironically it isn't even a cycle path, but people think it is, because it becomes one a bit futher along). I think the situation is made worse because the road concerned isn't wide enough for following drivers to pass when there is oncoming traffic, but traffic normally moves at above cycling speed, so they've got time to become grumpy as they slow down to follow a cyclist. I don't think people should assume this sort of thing isnt' a problem from their own personal experience, as situations can very so much depending on local circumstances. Before I started work wher I am at the moment, I hardly ever experienced the problem, but then my previous cycle routes were very different.

 

[Dan B]

their needs and safety have to be considered too.

That I agree with, but I remain unconvinced that segregation is a practical answer. 20mph limits and presumed liability, for example, would cost an awful lot less than the comprehensive network of wide well-maintained routes needed - shouldn't we be trying measures like that first?

 

[jonesy]

I'm afraid that there's some justice in this. Whatever we think I doubt that we're ever going to see mass commuting over six miles, and maybe not over four. The virtue of CS7 is that it picks up areas like Tooting, Balham and Clapham which are seven to five miles from the West End and the City.

Again - our problem is that, as a nation, we're stretching commuting distances, along with shopping distances. We're building dormitory suburbs on the outskirts of medium sized towns and still giving permission for retail sheds and superstores with huge car parks.

....

Indeed, and the point about travel distances has been made frequently in this discussion- no amount of cycling infrastructure will make a 10 mile commute cycleable for most people. But of course undestanding realistic cycling distances involves those statistics that blackend doesn't like...

 

[GrasB]

Thats a key issue, and one that was made many pages ago.... Cyclecraft works fine for cyclists that can move at the same speeds as the traffic around them. But, if you're a rider that goes along at 6 or 7mph it doesn't. For these cyclists the cycle lane/path makes far more sense. I doubt theres many folks on this forum that ride at those kind of speeds, but there are plenty of them out there in the real world, and their needs and safety have to be considered too.

Sorry that's just incorrect. My other half travels at these sorts of speeds around town & in villages. Since convincing her to read the book & put it into practice it she's noted that she feels far less marginalised in traffic & had far fewer problems in heavy traffic around town.

 

[GrasB]

My experience is very different: I get tooted, shouts etc probably monthly on my commute for my non use of a pavement (ironically it isn't even a cycle path, but people think it is, because it becomes one a bit futher along). I think the situation is made worse because the road concerned isn't wide enough for following drivers to pass when there is oncoming traffic, but traffic normally moves at above cycling speed, so they've got time to become grumpy as they slow down to follow a cyclist. I don't think people should assume this sort of thing isnt' a problem from their own personal experience, as situations can very so much depending on local circumstances. Before I started work wher I am at the moment, I hardly ever experienced the problem, but then my previous cycle routes were very different.

This is closer to my experience. It town sure I get hardly anything from motorists even when I'm taking up primary for miles on end (but then again I'm typically going at near motor vehicle pace). Out of town on >40mph limit roads I'm often beeped & sworn at for not using cycle paths but at well over 20mph I'm not going to be riding on one.

 

[dellzeqq]

fair do's, Jonesy and GrasB. It's clearly more of a problem than I'd thought.......

 

[GrasB]

dellzeqq, it's on road like the A603 & A1301... I've had more offs on those 2 length of cycle track in about 700 miles of riding than on several 10'000 miles on the road! I simply refuse to use them now.

 

[blockend]

But of course undestanding realistic cycling distances involves those statistics that blackend doesn't like...

Still taking pot shots at the messenger I see? For more than two decades I commuted by bicycle with each way journey times of 50 to 75 minutes. For eighteen months I even endured a hilly 44 mile round trip under the delusion I was 'commuting by bicycle'. It was complete hogwash of course. What I was doing was including athletic training into my working day to make me fitter for leisure cycling at the weekend. It had absolutely nothing to do with the aspirations of a typical utility cyclist, whose likely mileages have been spelt out by other posters, yet I was locked into the notion that my presence on the highway was in some way contributing to bicycle advocacy.

Sadly, too many people are still stuck in a similar mindset.

 

[jonesy]

Still taking pot shots at the messenger I see? For more than two decades I commuted by bicycle with each way journey times of 50 to 75 minutes. For eighteen months I even endured a hilly 44 mile round trip under the delusion I was 'commuting by bicycle'. It was complete hogwash of course. What I was doing was including athletic training into my working day to make me fitter for leisure cycling at the weekend. It had absolutely nothing to do with the aspirations of a typical utility cyclist, whose likely mileages have been spelt out by other posters, yet I was locked into the notion that my presence on the highway was in some way contributing to bicycle advocacy.

Sadly, too many people are still stuck in a similar mindset.

Indeed, and I was one of the first to do so, but then it wasn't me who was deriding the use of statistics in the discussion...

 

[blockend]

Indeed, and I was one of the first to do so, but then it wasn't me who was deriding the use of statistics in the discussion...

And what job are those statistics doing? Exponentially increasing utility cycling across the country? Or fuelling the hearth in cycling's comfort zones while Everyman drives past with a cheery wave? Or is there a set of stats to illustrate why that's only to be expected too?