Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

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Norm

Guest
Bloody Normans, bigger vandals than the Vandals.
And, don't forget we consider Genghis Khan to be too moderate.

“The greatest happiness is to vanquish your enemies, to chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth, to see those dear to them bathed in tears, to clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters.”

I think he'd suit a Porsche Cayenne with an attitude like that. :thumbsup:

Sure, if you are an experienced cyclist who enjoys the kind of insanity in London, it's okay, but that will never, ever, generate a real critical mass of cyclists, or mean than Joe or Jane Ford will decide to take a bike and not the car for shorter trips...
We just need more royal weddings... :biggrin:

th_DSCN0695EmbankmentLondonRoyalWedding2011-04-29.jpg
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
Come back for a visit one day. London is no longer insane for cyclists - at least in the centre. It's almost getting to the stage where there are too many cyclists for some of the roads. I can walk out of my office and see a phalanx of cyclists across the whole width of the road, waiting at the red lights.

I'm in London a couple of times a year still. Sometimes on my Brompton. I don't mind it, but then I'm one of us, I know what to expect and how to survive. In terms of campaigning for better cycling, I'm more interested in the reasons why people who are not like us in the UK don't cycle. In the Netherlands, there isn't really an 'us' and 'them'. Whatever else is good or bad about the Dutch system, that beats anything in the UK.
 
I would rather Cycle-craft was burned.

Make your own decisions about road use and discuss it with others in person and on the forum, follow the hive mind wisdom.

Ah, the "million lemmings can't be wrong" approach that authored such successes as the earth being flat, the universe revolving round the earth and bleeding people to cure their illnesses. ;)

Seriously though I would rather Cyclecraft was required reading at school. I see so many cyclists doing what they think is the sensible thing like hogging the gutter to keep out the way of traffic that I seriously doubt the wisdom of letting the hive wisdom prevail.
 
Having lived in Japan for several years, I can tell you one thing - there may not be formal segregation, but most people - with the exception of roadies like me - cycle on the pavement along with pedestrians and at very low speeds, given the chance. This and the culture of politeness on the roads has more to do with the low number of deaths and injuries in Japan than the number of cyclists per se.

I've lived there too and my experience is different. If you are in busy downtown Tokyo or Osaka during the day then cyclists are rare and tend to be on the pavement going slowly as pedestrians on wheels (and there also the culture of politeness prevails). But out in the suburbs especially during the morning and evening commute to the station but also during the day out in the suburbs they ride on the roads IME not least because the pavements are clogged with pedestrians walking to the station and are too slow. I've done a lot of transport and leisure cycling with Japanese friends cycling to the station or with the family or to friends/relatives houses and it was almost all on the roads and quite undisciplined as was all our cycling with them out in the countryside from family outings to road rides.


However, having cycled in many countries around the world, including the Netherlands, Britain does not come off well in comparison. Sure, if you are an experienced cyclist who enjoys the kind of insanity in London, it's okay, but that will never, ever, generate a real critical mass of cyclists, or mean than Joe or Jane Ford will decide to take a bike and not the car for shorter trips - which is what happens in the Netherlands, Denmark or even Germany. <......> Frankly cyclists like us are not best placed to understand people who wouldn't considering cycling at the moment and therefore think of appropriate ways to make them do so.

London is quite different and the availability of Boris Bikes is really changing it dramatically IMO and making people realise that anyone can cycle. There are many people of all sorts cycling now and the morning and evening rush hour roads are packed with cyclists. Cambridge is similar and always has been. I think there are a couple of factors. When cycling is seem as normal, people don't mind doing it. When its seen as the pastime of lycra clad road warriors risking their lives they shun getting involved. This is covered quite well in Fear of Cycling by David Horton, a sociologist from Lancaster University (his summary article on Copenhagenize is an interesting read too and highly relevant to this issue). The Dutch in general are not fearful of cycling, of being seen as different if they cycle and they don't promote cycling as something to be feared as we do in the UK.

An interesting second element IMO which you see in London particularly now (and if you drive in London or Cambridge you can experience it from the driver's side) is when there are large numbers of cyclists swarming through traffic it can be quite disconcerting for a driver and lead to anger and conflict seen at its extreme in some of the critical mass incidents. Its exacerbated by the impotence of being stuck in traffic and seeing all these people swarming past you making progress you can't or worse, appearing to slow your progress. To a large extent the segregated facilities in the Netherlands avoid this conflict by removing the bikes from the cars and cars from city centres. If you have ever tried to cycle on the road when there is a segregated facility in the Netherlands, the drivers make it very clear that you should not be there and if you cycle in the facilities you have to be prepared to go at the speed of the herd which can be quite slow and that of the slowest. And if you try to drive in the city centres you get to feel very much like an interloper much of the time.

But personally I think the secret in the UK is to make it so that cycling is seen as a normal activity that normal people do in normal clothes on normal roads and normal bikes and not the preserve of a breed apart. That is what the Netherlands has achieved while we do our best to do the opposite. It really is quite phenomenal to see what Boris Bikes have done for cycling in London even though they are a minor part of the scene (about 5% of journeys). But they are visible and visibly used by normal people sans helmets and in normal clothes making people think "I could do that" and often getting their own bike out the back of the garage.
 

Zoiders

New Member
Ah, the "million lemmings can't be wrong" approach that authored such successes as the earth being flat, the universe revolving round the earth and bleeding people to cure their illnesses. ;)

Seriously though I would rather Cyclecraft was required reading at school. I see so many cyclists doing what they think is the sensible thing like hogging the gutter to keep out the way of traffic that I seriously doubt the wisdom of letting the hive wisdom prevail.
I wouldn't.

Haven't we lined this man's pockets enough by buying into entrenched confrontional cycling tactics?

And teaching it to kids will just get them killed or injured, cycle craft relies on drivers following the rules as well instead of just running you over, it's crap because of that. As adults we can take the risk of being stone dead, smeared all over the road as long as we are "in the right", children should not be doing the same.

He didn't invent the concept of not hugging the gutter and I am titsed off with him being treated as some form of genius for making money from a manual.

When people ride in the gutter it's because they wrongly assume that's the place to ride, not because they ask other experienced cyclists.
 
I wouldn't.

Haven't we lined this man's pockets enough by buying into entrenched confrontional cycling tactics?

First he does a lot of Pro Bono work on behalf of cycling, second someone has to have spent time doing the research and writing it and it's reasonable that they get the rewards, which are not great as I understand it*, of that effort. Third, what would you do different to avoid "confrontational cycling tactics"? Abandon primary and secondary road positioning in favour of the gutter or getting off the road?


And teaching it to kids will just get them killed or injured

That doesn't seem to be the experience of Bikeability. In fact Bikeability training is by far the most effective safety intervention in cycling and anecdotally reassures parent who might otherwise not let their children cycle.

He didn't invent the concept of not hugging the gutter and I am titsed off with him being treated as some form of genius for making money from a manual.

No, it had many contributors but mainly from the two John's who talked to each other, Franklin in the UK and Forrester with Effective Cycling and Vehicular Cycling in the US.

When people ride in the gutter it's because they wrongly assume that's the place to ride, not because they ask other experienced cyclists.

So who is going to teach them? That's where making Cyclecraft part of the school life skills curriculum could be very effective.





* Assuming optimistically that he gets 20% of the cover price he would have to sell 10,000 copies a year to make the average wage of £25k
 

Zoiders

New Member
If you think they invented "primary position" in favour of gutter cycling you have got rocks in your head.

Gutter cycling was known to be a bad idea long before they floated the idea of the book, and the speaking engagements, and the consultancy fees etc etc. Cycle training existed before the "Johns" did as well.

You seem to be suggesting these seemingly full time consultants on all things road safety make a living another way.
rolleyes.gif


Vehicular cycling is also not always compatible with UK law and road layout, it's a US concept that stems from pedestrian/cyclist priority that exists on the roads in certain states of the US, the US also has separate and distinct penalties relating to vehicular manslaughter and use of a vehicle as a weapon that backs it up.

Until that becomes the case in the UK cycle craft will remain handy for propping up a wonky coffee table.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Another disreputable attack on John Franklin.
 

Zoiders

New Member
What?

That he is a self appointed authority who saw a way of credentialising cycling and turning into another proto-health and safety industry racket complete with the usual gravy train?

Jogging anyone?

Fancy buying a monorail while you are at it?
 
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