Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[Norm]

Good point, Greg. People slow down because they are not used to the change. After a few years (at the most), they are back to their previous attitudes and behaviour. IMO / IME.

As a Swindon cyclist I do not use the "cycle lanes", although they are not cycle lanes just shared paths, some with a white dividing line and some without, that vanish in the town centre. When I started commuting I used the "cycle lanes" but that was due to not having the confidence to ride on the roads, not many cyclist's on the roads a few years ago. Having become accustomed to riding on the road, using the "cycle lanes" feels very strange and I feel less safe.

I think that this is an important point as well. Many have spouted entrenched positions and long-held opinions as cyclists about what they feel needs to happen for them to be happier cycling on the roads. To get an increase in the number of cyclists, we first need to get the non-cyclists into a position where they feel they would be happy cycling. Whatever else, cycle routes / paths / lanes do give the perception of a world which cares about cyclists and they are, IMO, useful to encourage people to take their first steps. Which, I think, harks back to the OP.

I do also agree that life is slower, more relaxed and more enjoyable cycling without traffic. For those people who don't know Franklin from Pidd, the book can come across as a set of intimidating rules which could, again IMO, put off more people than all the cycle paths of Bracknell.

 

[WilliamNB]

Having read through the ENTIRE thread, I can see valid points in both sides of the argument.

However, the on-road side is badly let down by one individual that reverts to name-calling, talking down to and being dismissive of people trying to have a discussion, yet has the nerve of telling people to not get snippy with him.
This makes me think his favourite song of all time may just be "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble"?

 

[dellzeqq]

Welcome to Campaigning........

perhaps I'm offended by the dissimulation and the disrespect shown to John Franklin and a generation of cycle campaigners? And, perhaps I'm not impressed by people who simply cannot come up with the goods when they're invited to....

 

[jonesy]

User- my reply was to redlight not you! Sorry, mobile forum doesn't use quotes.

 

[GrasB]

we in the sham are the proud owners of a deliberately narrowed road, white lines set 1m from the kerb on both sides of the road and some award winning naked road space. Both have a half life of about two years before the novelty wears of and driver behaviour reverts to type.

Interestingly there's a back road near to me that due to history, coincidence & neglect has no centre line, but 2 solid white lines about 1.5-2m from the edge of the road & a significant surface change near each of the white lines. The net result is that motorists tend to drive down the middle of the road & only pull to the side when there's an oncoming vehicle, though speeds are still up in the 45-60mph range. It's been like this for several years now & motorist behaviour has been consistent. I wonder if that surface change has some significance here?

 

[WilliamNB]

Welcome to Campaigning........

perhaps I'm offended by the dissimulation and the disrespect shown to John Franklin and a generation of cycle campaigners? And, perhaps I'm not impressed by people who simply cannot come up with the goods when they're invited to....

Perhaps you weren't being very grown up about it? After all, adults are supposed to be able to have debate without resorting to name calling, aren't we? We're also supposed to gracefully accept the fact that some may disagree with our opinion while realising that opinion and fact are different things.

As for coming up with the goods, I thought several people (on BOTH sides) made compelling arguments, supported by facts, while some clearly asked for more information. Dismissing half of those people, and several valid facts they brought to the table, out of hand simply because it conflicts with your opinion isn't helpful.

You also made false claims: you said only a few hundred people wanted segregation. Please can you justify this claim, bearing in mind many in the CTC are is favour of segregated paths. You also seem to think that having segregation doesn't mean in all cases and at any cost, which I find confusing.

Like many others, I enjoy cycling on the road (my 6 mile commute is on the road), and I enjoy decent segregated facilities. So in your world of black and white, where does that leave me?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Interestingly there's a back road near to me that due to history, coincidence & neglect has no centre line, but 2 solid white lines about 1.5-2m from the edge of the road & a significant surface change near each of the white lines. The net result is that motorists tend to drive down the middle of the road & only pull to the side when there's an oncoming vehicle, though speeds are still up in the 45-60mph range. It's been like this for several years now & motorist behaviour has been consistent. I wonder if that surface change has some significance here?

take my white lines replace them with kerbs and viola the change is permanent, apart from the odd idiot,ime.

i think your lines are there to stop people having accidents caused by the 'gutters' on a badly deformed road surface. lots of la's do that.

 

[dellzeqq]

............I enjoy decent segregated facilities. So in your world of black and white, where does that leave me?

I've no idea. But, then again, you clearly haven't troubled to read what I wrote...

 

[GrumpyGregry]

To get an increase in the number of cyclists, we first need to get the non-cyclists into a position where they feel they would be happy cycling. Whatever else, cycle routes / paths / lanes do give the perception of a world which cares about cyclists and they are, IMO, useful to encourage people to take their first steps. Which, I think, harks back to the OP.

but having taken to the cycle paths, which I agree can be splendid places for folk to learn to cycle in traffic free environments, how does our tyro migrate to the road?

the road conditions will not have been improved whilst they are learning, the traffic levels will not have been significantly reduced, so where does this leave a significant number of them? Cowering on the cycle path looking enviously at the roads? Resigned to the 'fact' that cycles clearly have no place mixing it with motor traffic - bikes as toys not transport? Demanding more segregated cycleways to extend their personal cycing reach without using roads?

Hence my obsession with regulating speed in urban settings. Slow the traffic down, ensure the law protects the most vulneralbe road users, place the onus on motor uses to drive responsible and with the utmost care...

Picture the scene... the seven-and-a-half tonner that just drove past my window at 40mph (in a 30 zone) going past at 20, all the cars doing the same because of blanket and enforced urban speed limits. Suddenly the roads don't look like such a hazardous environment to cycle in, to learn to cycle on even. Cycling becomes an attractive proposition and the perception of danger alters.

By building cycleways I feel we are addressing the symptoms of the problem not the root cause, which I contend is this; motor traffic, and associated noise, pollution, and demand for parking, but most of all its speed, has simply turned our towns and cities uncivilised places to live in.

20's plenty, where people live.

 

[GrasB]

take my white lines replace them with kerbs and viola the change is permanent, apart from the odd idiot,ime.

i think your lines are there to stop people having accidents caused by the 'gutters' on a badly deformed road surface. lots of la's do that.

My lines are a relic of a kludged road widening. The road originally was a single track road & to widen it they used the verge to add 1.5-2m to each side. Instead of putting an entirely new surface on they just put tarmac onto the level of the old road & then top-dressed the lot to make a consistent surface. The top dressing has now been worn away removing the 'new' centre line & revealing the old, irrelevant, gutter markings.

 

[dellzeqq]

20s plenty, which seems to be gaining ground by the day in London, has got to be a winner for cyclists, but a far bigger winner for pedestrians. And, along with homezones it's cheap. As in do-ably cheap. The mile long path in Cable Street cost £1.3M the second time around. There's not going to be too many of those around any time soon. The entirety of CS7 cost £11M, which I think is pretty good value. 20mph zones cost about £3000 per mile.

 

[GrasB]

20s plenty, which seems to be gaining ground by the day in London, has got to be a winner for cyclists, but a far bigger winner for pedestrians. And, along with homezones it's cheap. As in do-ably cheap. The mile long path in Cable Street cost £1.3M the second time around. There's not going to be too many of those around any time soon. The entirety of CS7 cost £11M, which I think is pretty good value. 20mph zones cost about £3000 per mile.

For 'ambling' cyclists I'd concur but for faster riders maybe not as I find that most 20 limits are a pain to ride in. Though this maybe because of the varied way drivers treat a 20mph limit in light to medium traffic (the typical type of traffic I'll be riding in when under a 20 speed limit) & lack of speed limit policing; when the traffic isn't on the heavier side cars will be doing anywhere between 15mph & 35mph, this means that trying to be in the flow of traffic is a bit like random interval HIIT. Where the traffic is on the heavier side of life I'm capable of exceeding the speed of traffic which means I'm in the general flow of traffic anyway so it simply means I'm not traveling as quickly.

 

[dellzeqq]

accepted. I'm a convert. This is the rationale

a) you (and I) are in a distinct minority when it comes to cruising speed. And it doesn't cost us greatly. You're probably a bit speedier than I am, but, accompanied by Susie, which effectively puts an 18mph top speed on the trip, I can do the 7.5 miles to Islington in 45 minutes. On my own, doing my Mad Max impersonation, it takes 32 minutes. I'd be hacked off, but I could live with the loss of 13 minutes.
b) the last roads to be 20-ified are the main roads

 

[Dan B]

As another cyclist who likes to "make progress", I reluctantly have to agree with Simon here too. If the goal is "convivial streets" then furious cycling is as out of place on them as the equivalent cut-up-and-thrust style of motorised vehicle driving. Save it for the ring roads or the open countryside.

 

[GrasB]

I completely agree I'm in the minority here,

I don't mind doing 18-20mph when flowing with the traffic, it's the much less predicable nature of it that makes it very hard work & at the top end puts me out of the traffic flow. I do think simply enforcing the 20 mph limit effectively would reduce the problem I have with 20 limits as a cyclist. Lets face it 25mph +/- 33% in a 20 limit is problem for everyone involved.