CTC capitulation?

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Please take the time to read this short piece and look at the video, obviously they can do things cheaper in the Netherlands. Is anyone querying the cost of this roundabout? It would be cheaper to have one of these bridges with 4 arms to it and it's own intersection above the road. Just bring the Dutch engineers and planners over here and let them get on with it because we surely cannot.
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/01/16/spectacular-zoetermeer-cycle-bridge/
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
A proper Dutch style cycling roundabout, along these lines:
Dutch+style+roundabout+test+TfL.jpg
I'm intrigued to know what I would do if I came across one ... if I was going right it would probably be quicker to stay on the central road section.
 

Danny

Legendary Member
Location
York
A proper Dutch style cycling roundabout, along these lines:
Dutch+style+roundabout+test+TfL.jpg
I take it that this is an 'ideal' roundabout built in a test centre. In practice even the Dutch have had to compromise on this ideal when faced with modifying real world roads. I've seen roundabouts layouts in Amsterdam that are not so different to the Bedford one.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Please take the time to read this short piece and look at the video, obviously they can do things cheaper in the Netherlands. Is anyone querying the cost of this roundabout? It would be cheaper to have one of these bridges with 4 arms to it and it's own intersection above the road. Just bring the Dutch engineers and planners over here and let them get on with it because we surely cannot.
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/01/16/spectacular-zoetermeer-cycle-bridge/
That video warms the cockles of my heart. Wonder what it would be like peak time in a more urban setting. Planned development within the (political) right priorities can deliver wonderful outcomes.
 

StuartG

slower but no further
Location
SE London
I'm intrigued to know what I would do if I came across one ... if I was going right it would probably be quicker to stay on the central road section.
Yes, that's UK thinking and the conflicting UK motorist's confusion might also be an issue.

Because they presumably work in the Netherlands does not imply they will work here tomorrow. The Dutch have been on a long journey to reach their current infrastructure. Their attitudes and behaviour have evolved along the way. We have hardly started on ours. Realistically many (most?) changes in modal use and modal behaviour are gradualist both from a political point of view and for people to adapt safely to them.

Arguing about the speed of progress (which is highly correlated with cash) is one thing. To demand revolution or pram evacuation will leave you unentertained.
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
I take it that this is an 'ideal' roundabout built in a test centre. In practice even the Dutch have had to compromise on this ideal when faced with modifying real world roads. I've seen roundabouts layouts in Amsterdam that are not so different to the Bedford one.

Yes, but they are all motoring roundabouts, not cycling ones: none of them require cyclists to go through them.
Please, read this: http://departmentfortransport.wordp...ople-wonder-what-is-being-done-in-their-name/
 

jonesy

Guru
Will it? Can you say that absolutely? The reality is probably that there will be an initial reduction in average speeds but these will soon creep back up as people get used to the layout.


Will it? Even if it does reduce speeds, the other issues highlighted with this particular project may mean that overall the risk to cyclists is increased.

Just to be clear, we need to distinguish between the general point that tighter geometry will reduce speeds and the specific question about how effective this design of roundabout is at tightening geometry. Taking the first point: simplistically, but fairly obviously, people drive faster on straight, wide roads than they do on narrow windy ones; and they go round wide corners faster than round sharp ones. That's way junctions on fast roads have larger turning radiius than those on lower speed roads. The basic principle of what is often referred to as 'continental' design roundabouts is to have much shorter turning radii than is usually the case in the UK, which both reduces speeds and places the turning vehicle more perpendicularly to the flow of cyclists going round the roundabout, thereby improving visibility, see for example this (now fairly old) Traffic Advisory Leaflet:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....gov.uk/adobepdf/165240/244921/244924/TAL_9-97

Now, one of the ways in which the continental geometry roundabout achieves tighter geometry is to have only a single circulating lane, usually with a wide island that has an over-run area to allow long vehicles to get round, though at reduced speed. This further benefits cyclists by making it harder for drivers to over or undertake cyclists on the roundabout. However, clearly this reduces capacity, so the 'turbo' design uses two lanes, but with lane separators, to try to achieve the same thing. I fully accept the concern that this may not be sufficiently effective, not least because the lane dividers might not be sufficient deterrent. But, as I understand it, the rest of the design does create the tighter geometry, so lower speeds, and better positioning would still be reasonably expected.

Ben makes the point that in the Netherlands these roundabouts are used with segregated cycle provision, rather than expecting cyclists to go round with the traffic. Afraid I can't comment on that, but I do accept that this is likely. However, the broader 'continental' approach is used both with (e.g. the TfL trial design) and without segregated cycle tracks, so I wouldn't rule out using the turbo roundabout for use with mainly on-road cycling, if it does prove to be effective at reducing traffic speeds, discouraging cutting-up and improving positioning for sightlines. So, on the whole, while I understand the concerns, I'd prefer to see how it works in practice rather than dismiss it in advance. I'd add that the cycling officer behind this is most certainly not from the conventional pro-car highway engineering school of thought and probably knows more about international practice and research literature in cycling than most people working in the field.
 

jonesy

Guru
I take it that this is an 'ideal' roundabout built in a test centre. In practice even the Dutch have had to compromise on this ideal when faced with modifying real world roads. I've seen roundabouts layouts in Amsterdam that are not so different to the Bedford one.

Indeed. This is just one of several different 'Dutch' design methods, not all of which give cyclists on the orbital lane priority over turning traffic. However, there is a general rule in the Netherlands that cyclists using a cycle track adjacent to carriageway will usually have priority over vehicles turning across them, the opposite way round to normal UK practice. Clearly it would make it easier to implement designs such as the one TfL is trialling if such a rule were adopted in the UK. However, legal priority is only part of the story, even where drivers should give way (for example to pedestrians that have started to cross) they rarely do so if the design of the infrastructure sends the opposite message, for example when large turning radii encourage high speeds. Conversely, if a junction is designed to force drivers to slow down, and positions them so that pedestrians or cyclists about to cross are directly in their line of sight, then they are much more likely to give way even if the formal priority rules say they don't have to. So there is a role for new approaches to infrastructure design in changing behaviour.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
Please take the time to read this short piece and look at the video, obviously they can do things cheaper in the Netherlands. Is anyone querying the cost of this roundabout? It would be cheaper to have one of these bridges with 4 arms to it and it's own intersection above the road. Just bring the Dutch engineers and planners over here and let them get on with it because we surely cannot.
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/01/16/spectacular-zoetermeer-cycle-bridge/

I think there is some confusion on costing. From what I can see (from CTC website) the Bedford changes will cost £300k, all of which is coming from the £20M pot set aside for improving cycle safety. I believe all the money for the change is coming from this fund.
 
I think there is some confusion on costing. From what I can see (from CTC website) the Bedford changes will cost £300k, all of which is coming from the £20M pot set aside for improving cycle safety. I believe all the money for the change is coming from this fund.
My mistake if that is the case, still seems a lot for relatively minor changes. My view has not changed though, it is still just tinkering. We toured the Netherlands last year and until you have experienced the difference it is difficult to fully understand how pleasant it is, completely stress free.
 
I agree, but a vociferous band of anti-segregationist cyclists remain to be convinced in the UK^_^.
There are plenty of open roads / country lanes over there where the road is shared with polite drivers and the cycle ways [I hesitate to call them paths because often they are as wide as a country lane] that run parallel to the major roads are wide enough to take a club run on, indeed we saw several doing just that. You only really notice the segregation in the bigger towns and cities, and very welcome it is too. I like my freedom as much as anyone, but this works. On many occasions we did mile after mile through forests and even sand dunes on dedicated cycle ways without sight or sound of a vehicle, bliss.
 
A proper Dutch style cycling roundabout, along these lines:
Dutch+style+roundabout+test+TfL.jpg

I'd agree - that would be lovely................in theory.

However, as stated previously, you'll know that sadly there isn't space to install that type of roundabout in Bedford. I took part in the TRL trials of this type of roundabout last summer, and used the exact one shown above, and so I can assure you it would be absolutely lethal to cyclists. You'll note that for the exit for vehicles from the roundabout, there are shark's teeth markings and then square blocks of paint. These are not current road markings - drivers will have no experience or knowledge about what they mean. Cyclists going round on the segregated track are supposed to have priority, meaning vehicles will be expected to stop on the roundabout, to give way to a cyclist. Do you think that will happen?

Edit:

I should also point out that when I was driving round the TRL roundabout, there was only 1 cyclist on each arm, with 1 car approaching, and generally only 1 car actually on the roundabout. So it was a totally false environment, with no dealings of high traffic volumes. Even so, several times I nearly ran over the cyclist, even though I was driving no more than 15-20 mph, and I knew the cyclist was there. It will need a radical shift in driver perceptions and attitudes for these roundabouts to be safe to use in the UK. In the Netherlands, they've had decades of experience, and more importantly, unlike here, most drivers are regular cyclists as well.
 
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