COVID Vaccine !

[SpokeyDokey]

This is why I avoid the news. And probably this thread now 🤷‍♂️

Don't do that - once you wade through the politically tinted rhetoric it's quite interesting and informative.

 

[tom73]

I heard something this afternoon that gave me a real WTF moment! A senior nurse we know has now had two Covid-19 vaccinations. That's good, isn't it? Well, not when you learn that this nurse has had one Pfizer jab and the other was the Astra/Zeneca one! We don't know if this nurse is double-covered, or not covered at all. It came to light on the system which has to log all such vaccinations given.

Really ? Did both happen at the same centre ?
This sort of thing should not happen and is not great any mixing of vaccine types of any vaccine is only to be done in exceptional circumstances that's been standard for years. The big push for bigger and bigger vaccine centres that have been set up not to work with the tried and tested Primary care networks. Even the system for recording covid vaccinations is not the same as the one that records every other one.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Very sadly more woes in Europe - a double whammy from Pfizer and Oxford/AZ in the supply chain.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55771223

Also, I hadn't realised that the Oxford/AZ vaccine still isn't approved for use there. Why the delay I wonder?

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Really ? Did both happen at the same centre ?
This sort of thing should not happen and is not great any mixing of vaccine types of any vaccine is only to be done in exceptional circumstances that's been standard for years. The big push for bigger and bigger vaccine centres that have been set up not to work with the tried and tested Primary care networks. Even the system for recording covid vaccinations is not the same as the one that records every other one.

What's the disconnect between the BVC's and the PCN?

 

[Blue Hills]

Don't do that - once you wade through the politically tinted rhetoric it's quite interesting and informative.

yep somewhat to my surprise I find this thread a very handy way of keeping up with the latest developments/progress

 

[Ajax Bay]

My brother's got his staff vaccinated at his dental practice. Two younger female staff won't have it as they are worried about fertility issues. FFS too much social media influence from conspiracy theorists.

Putting this here, @fossyant , in the 'vaccine' thread.

 

[Blue Hills]

Very sadly more woes in Europe - a double whammy from Pfizer and Oxford/AZ in the supply chain.

I know Italy has descended to some very low jabs per day figure compared to ours.
Sardinia has just gone up a level of lockdown with daily curfews. As an island which cut travel fairly early it was somewhat protected from the worst ravaging Italy but such is the sodding virus it was bound to take hold and run riot eventually. Infection rates now approaching the really bad levels in many urban east london boroughs I think. At least they bought time until the vaccine.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

I know Italy has descended to some very low jabs per day figure compared to ours.
Sardinia has just gone up a level of lockdown with daily curfews. As an island which cut travel fairly early it was somewhat protected from the worst ravaging Italy but such is the sodding virus it was bound to take hold and run riot eventually. Infection rates now approaching the really bad levels in many urban east london boroughs I think. At least they bought time until the vaccine.

I think there will be some harmonisation of death rates across Europe before this thing runs it's course - bad news that Germany who were very quick off the mark in the early Covid phase are now up to 50k deaths and with a very slow vaccine rollout thus far.

 

[Blue Hills]

I think there will be some harmonisation of death rates across Europe before this thing runs it's course - bad news that Germany who were very quick off the mark in the early Covid phase are now up to 50k deaths and with a very slow vaccine rollout thus far.

yes quite possibly.
That's the horrible logic of the thing - mass isolate folk and you are just keeping a stock of nice virginal meat for the sodding thing to come and chomp on. If it weren't for the vaccines produced extremely quickly this would be hell indeed.
Hang in there folks.

 

[tom73]

What's the disconnect between the BVC's and the PCN?

BVC are ran by NHS England are very much under central government control. Hence why many are getting letters from NHS and GP's the latter to many who already have had a vaccine from the GP. In same case people have had 3 letter. Once you have your 1st one at BVC you can't have your 2rd at the GP even if that turns out to be easier for you eg unable to travel ect. The letter clearly are coming off other data base and not directly of medical records and not being crossed ref either. So GP's have no idea if you've had a letter or not or if you've had one dose.
BVC don't even have access to medical records even basic info. The simple way is provide primary care with the means to increase numbers and together with the wider NHS at a local level do it in a way that best meet's local need. It's a big mess waiting to happen just playing a numbers game is not a great idea. T&T sadly showed what happens.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

yes quite possibly.
That's the horrible logic of the thing - mass isolate folk and you are just keeping a stock of nice virginal meat for the sodding thing to come and chomp on. If it weren't for the vaccines produced extremely quickly this would be hell indeed.
Hang in there folks.

For sheer evocative-ness you can have 10/10 for that.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

BVC are ran by NHS England are very much under central government control. Hence why many are getting letters from NHS and GP's the latter to many who already have had a vaccine from the GP. In same case people have had 3 letter. Once you have your 1st one at BVC you can't have your 2rd at the GP even if that turns out to be easier for you eg unable to travel ect. The letter clearly are coming off other data base and not directly of medical records and not being crossed ref either. So GP's have no idea if you've had a letter or not or if you've had one dose.
BVC don't even have access to medical records even basic info. The simple way is provide primary care with the means to increase numbers and together with the wider NHS at a local level do it in a way that best meet's local need. It's a big mess waiting to happen just playing a numbers game is not a great idea. T&T sadly showed what happens.

Merci!

I thought that the BVC's were being run in concert with a wider control group than central government? Is this not the case?

As a layman I think that the case for the BVC's seems the way to go for me. I can't imagine that the PCN could cope with the extra volume as my understanding is that they are stretched at the best of times?

With such a large rollout project I think that we have to accept that some errors will always be made. As the project progresses these will probably/hopefully be ironed out. At the end of the day the moot point is that 'jabs' are getting into arms very quickly and if some things need improving behind the scenes, so to speak, then it's a small price to pay imo.

 

[Ajax Bay]

This sort of thing should not happen and is not great any mixing of vaccine types of any vaccine is only to be done in exceptional circumstances that's been standard for years. The big push for bigger and bigger vaccine centres that have been set up not to work with the tried and tested Primary care networks. Even the system for recording covid vaccinations is not the same as the one that records every other one.

JCVI direction is clear: the second dose should be the same as the first. Surprised the medically qualified nurse herself didn't say 'no' I'll pause for a second dose (why are they giving her a second dose btw) till I can get a Pfizer one (same as 'my' first one). The criteria for going ahead are unlikely to be met in her case: "individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again".

Worth pointing out, though, that there is no evidence that giving a second dose of the 'other' vaccine is detrimental, or beneficial, or 'doesn't make any difference'. It's just that, in normal times (for other two dose vaccination regimes) it'd be avoided, on a precautionary basis, with no time pressure, vaccine paucity or opportunity benefit.

Tom is right to highlight the apparent disconnect between the IT systems being used to record and track the COVID-19 vaccination effort. NHS are apparently working hard to get this sorted. But @tom73 pointed out weeks ago that it would make complete sense to have both jabs in the same place, indeed the 'system' may seek to 'force' this, only offering second dose appointments at the centre where the first was given.
JCVI direction Vaccine schedule
"JCVI advises that the second vaccine dose should be with the same vaccine as for the first dose. Switching between vaccines or missing the second dose is not advised as this may affect the duration of protection."
Link to NHS 'Green Book' Chapter 14a gives the circumstances where a second dose of the 'other' vaccine may be given.
"There is no evidence on the interchangeability of the COVID-19 vaccines although studies are underway. Therefore, every effort should be made to determine which vaccine the individual received and to complete with the same vaccine. For individuals who started the schedule [had the first dose] and who attend for vaccination at a site where
the same vaccine is not available, or
if the first product received is unknown,
it is reasonable to offer one dose of the locally available product to complete the schedule [second dose]. This option is preferred if the individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again. In these circumstances, as both the vaccines are based on the spike protein, it is likely the second dose will help to boost the response to the first dose."

 

[PaulB]

Really ? Did both happen at the same centre ?
This sort of thing should not happen and is not great any mixing of vaccine types of any vaccine is only to be done in exceptional circumstances that's been standard for years. The big push for bigger and bigger vaccine centres that have been set up not to work with the tried and tested Primary care networks. Even the system for recording covid vaccinations is not the same as the one that records every other one.

Yes, it did happen at the same centre. I've been corrected though in that the person involved isn't necessarily a nurse but is certainly a health professional of some sort and this was discovered through their NHS number. It hasn't been divulged if it was male or female.

 

[tom73]

Yes, it did happen at the same centre. I've been corrected though in that the person involved isn't necessarily a nurse but is certainly a health professional of some sort and this was discovered through their NHS number. It hasn't been divulged if it was male or female.

Right ok then in that case assuming it's not a mass vaccine centre and all records are fully available then the giver has failed to do standard checks before giving it. If that person is a HCP then it's hot water time. In any case that is a drug error and will need be formally reported and investigated blood will be on carpet for someone.