COVID Vaccine !

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midlife

Guru
This is cut and paste from BBC,

He (Hancock) confirmed surge vaccinations would be going ahead in areas where there are spikes in the numbers of cases of the Indian variant

But Prof Adam Finn told Marr the JCVI had warned against surge vaccinations as they could do "more harm than good" by disrupting the rollout across the country

Prof Finn says: "You end up chasing the virus around and always arriving too late."

Seems like the government are going against advice?
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
I was listening to an expert on Radio 4 on the way home from work on Friday. Talking about why surge vaccination in Bolton would not be the best way to tackle the outbreak in the first instance. And why the government is still planning to vaccinate older / vulnerable people before the youngest cohorts. Sorry if it came across differently.
Agree that 'surge vaccination' of the 20-35s in outbreak areas would seem unlikely to have beneficial effect in the short term. But such use of vaccination would have a different purpose than the current priority which is to save lives of the more vulnerable half of the population.
The rationale for surge vaccination bringing forward second doses (to, say, 8 weeks) is that the added protection against disease from the second jab will save the lives of the over 50s, and the IFR for under 50s is low, very low, so vaccinating more of them with their first dose would save fewer lives. (See graph in next post) This reads across to the unhappy reality that the majority of those who die (with a COVID-19 positive test) in the coming months will have been vaccinated (both doses)! Currently about 1000 people die in UK every week. Currently about 60 of those are recorded as down to COVID-19. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
Vaccination (first dose) in outbreak areas of the 25-39s (delaying second doses) would, after a fortnight/21 days delay, reduce the numbers susceptible (in those areas) and thus the rate of transmission. And this advantage may be needed if the B.1.617.2 variant is indeed more transmissible than the B.1.1.7 - the level of uncertainty on that is very high.
If vaccine supplies and generally the daily vaccination rate can be ramped up then we can do some of both, and that is the implication of the government's messaging - good news (though no doubt it can and will be judged 'wrong' in some way, by some).
 
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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
The rationale for surge vaccination bringing forward second doses (to, say, 8 weeks) is that the added protection against disease from the second jab will save the lives of the over 50s, and the IFR for under 50s is low, very low, so vaccinating more of them with their first dose would save fewer lives.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289900/#&gid=article-figures&pid=fig-4-uid-3
1621168974722.png

"exponential relationship between age and IFR for COVID-19. The estimated age-specific IFR is very low for children and younger adults (e.g., 0.002% at age 10 and 0.01% at age 25) but increases progressively to 0.4% at age 55, 1.4% at age 65, 4.6% at age 75, and 15% at age 85."
 
He (Hancock) confirmed surge vaccinations would be going ahead in areas where there are spikes in the numbers of cases of the Indian variant

But Prof Adam Finn told Marr the JCVI had warned against surge vaccinations as they could do "more harm than good" by disrupting the rollout across the country

Prof Finn says: "You end up chasing the virus around and always arriving too late."

Seems like the government are going against advice?

"Surge vaccinations" is a very imprecise term which can mean anything from accelerating second doses for over 50s to delivering a first dose to 18 year olds.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
This is cut and paste from BBC,

He (Hancock) confirmed surge vaccinations would be going ahead in areas where there are spikes in the numbers of cases of the Indian variant

But Prof Adam Finn told Marr the JCVI had warned against surge vaccinations as they could do "more harm than good" by disrupting the rollout across the country

Prof Finn says: "You end up chasing the virus around and always arriving too late."

Seems like the government are going against advice?

I think they are doing what they've done from day one.

Balancing the economic and social imperative to reduce restrictions against the medical advice which itself can be conflicting.

A difficult task, not least because there is no right answer.
 

midlife

Guru
"Surge vaccinations" is a very imprecise term which can mean anything from accelerating second doses for over 50s to delivering a first dose to 18 year olds.


By surge vaccination the implication is that a mass vaccination hub is opened and everybody from age 18 is vaccinated. As has been announce for Blackburn

Edit. Just re read the BBC article, and maybe the phrase over 18 means the same as elsewhere but more pressure on individuals to vaccinate and more vaccine available.
 
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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Pulling this across from the 'CC General Chat' sub-forum.
I said: "The rationale for not elevating various employment categories to a higher priority in the vaccination programme is based on data which show that, take primary school teachers, the risk of infection is minimally or no more than the risk in their local community generally, and that the IFR is best related to age (no UHC). Bus drivers, taxi drivers, security guards et al are far more vulnerable to infection compared with their peers.
Then consider the male v female risk differential and the BAME v white one as well."
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ups-for-covid-19-vaccination-30-december-2020
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.22.20109892v2
There is data to show that the risk of infection for school staff is between 1.5x and 7x greater than the general public depending on role but that the risk of death or severe disease is no greater than the population as a whole. This is due to the severe consequences of covid being linked strongly to poverty and deprivation and not just to exposure.
The government could have gone with public facing occupations (not just teachers) as their rationale for rolling out the vaccination programme after groups 1 - 9 but went with age due to ease and speed of administering.
I recalled this: Full facts: https://fullfact.org/health/teacher-covid-transmission/ ONS published an analysis covering the period from 2 September to 16 October, showing that teachers were not significantly more likely to have tested positive than other workers. Although there was a high degree of uncertainty in the findings.
I also looked at this paper (perhaps there is more recent research with different conclusions - which I invite you to share) published by the Lancet: "
SARS-CoV-2 infection and transmission in primary schools in England in June–December, 2020 (sKIDs): an active, prospective surveillance study"
Prof Woolhouse, Head of infectious disease epidemiology at Edinburgh University (and also a member of SPI-M btw), commented: "Even if this virus doesn’t spread easily among the children, it certainly will spread among staff if it gets the opportunity. The evidence so far is that the most dangerous room in the school is not the classroom, it’s the staff room. So schools need to pay attention to that, and not take their eye off the right ball."
If he's right the issue is that school teachers are 'forced' to socialise with other members of staff, and catch it from them. Perhaps there are measures that schools could take to minimise this risk?
We have seen no indicator in the case numbers of increased rates of infection when schools re-opened on 8 Mar, nor when pupils went back for the summer term.
Edit: @Archie_tect also commented pointed out the disruption infections and sending whole classes home for 10 days has on pupils schooling/learning.
 
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midlife

Guru
Slightly related but it's likely the hospital staff room where infections are picked up and not the clinics / wards / ITU. We run staggered breaks and lunches to keep staff social contact to a minimum.

Come Monday nothing changes.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Multilateral social mixing really is best kept out of doors for the meantime, especially in areas where prevalence is high.
Maybe this 'surge vaccination' is a sophisticated (:laugh:) government plot to increase vaccine uptake in certain communities which other methods (beers) have not reached?
But it's all a balance and a judgement call, as Paley has said upthread (or on the main one: I've lost track).
 

RoadRider400

Some bloke that likes cycling alone
Banning travel from India would only have been delaying the inevitable. Eventually it would have arrived from somewhere else in somebody who did not even know they had it. Due to the relative close proximity of our busy cities we are geographically and logistically an ideal petri dish.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
"Delaying the inevitable [banning travel from India]" (while vaccinations proceeded apace) would have saved lives.
In what way, Dave? I thought noone had died with an infection from the B.1.617.2 variant. Very regrettably, with the number of cases, it's likely they will in due course /soon. Given that 99% of people likely to die of COVID-19 have been vaccinated with one jab, and the vulnerable JCVI Gps 1-6 with both, the numbers who die will be very small (acknowledge each one tragic). And unless this variant outcompetes the B.1.1.7 (no evidence of that), is more lethal (no evidence of that) or evades the vaccines (no evidence of that) the numbers saved will be very few.
What the introduction and limited spread in some communities of this VoC variant does create is uncertainty. In particular there is no evidence yet whether this variant partially evades the protection offered by vaccination or whether the OxfordAZ/Pfizer/Moderna vaccines will offer similar protection as they do against the now predominant for 6 months wild B.1.1.7 variety.
I don't agree with @RoadRider400 btw when they say: "Eventually it would have arrived from somewhere else." There are plenty of variants which have not gained a foothold. The relationship between India and Great Britain is very strong and hence the carriage and import of this variant. I do wonder why there were so many people from/resident in UK visiting India on business during the Easter holidays (ish). Anyone seen any commentary on this?
 
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