COVID Vaccine !

[lane]

It doesn't. That's precisely my point. "Normal" life can't resume until most of the world is protected. We can have a semblance of normal life as the Australians and New Zealanders are experiencing it, in which no-one can enter the UK. But that's not normality. And it's why this:

is fatuous. It's not "our party". It's the world's party. And like it or not, our world starts in Europe. It's in our national interest to get the rest of Europe vaccinated as quickly as is humanly possible, because a semi-normality in which we can travel freely around Europe and other Europeans can come and visit is a damn sight more normal than a semi-normality in which we're stuck in the UK.

Would you t

Straw man alert!

I am saying that whatever we do to vaccinate our own vulnerable population (and it's really good that we're doing well) is meaningless for long-term protection while there are still unvaccinated vulnerable out there in whom the virus can mutate.

I don't think it was a straw man alert; that is exactly how I read your comments. What you day now makes complete sense.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

The national interest is surely to get ourselves vaccinated first and others later.

As always, more nuance helps.

If tens, or hundreds of thousands are dying on the continent while we vaccinate 20 year olds at near zero risk, is that in the national interest? And is it ethical?

Would showing zero compassion in a crisis to a near neighbour who we desperately need to build trust with be in the national interest? Or pragmatic?

Where the border between ethics, morals, the national interest, callous disregard and criminal self- interest lies is a continuum, not a hard divide, in my opinion at least.

And I think while so many people are suffering and dying, jumping to judgment doesn't help.

[edit: on reading again I realise this might come across as if aimed at you personally - that's not how it is intended, it's just thinking aloud]

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Oh great. Now it's kicked off over the Irish border too.

Situation desperately requires imaginative and powerful international leadership. Think Gordon Brown in the financial crisis.

EU is failing badly and publicly on this front, and UK just keeping our metaphorical head down. Who will step up?

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Needless to say, in yesterday's press round-up on the radio there was a lot of criticism of the delay in getting vaccination going, and the government's and the EU's role in this. In particular, the EU worrying about costs.

Today it has changed somewhat. It is true that the UK ordered AZ first. The EU also later ordered with a contract for 80 million doses. This was suddenly reduced a few days ago to 31 million doses, and don't forget Pfizer last week announced a temporary cut back in the amount it had agreed to provide at 24 hours notice. This has hardly helped accelerate vaccination, worse with the British mutation threatening.

The EU's complaint it seems to me is that the supplies to the continent have been drastically reduced, whilst maintaining those to the UK. The fact the UK ordered first isn't relevant to this. Nor is where the product is produced. It seems reasonable that reductions in the supply should be spread equally to all customers with a contract with AZ.

Why should AZ dissappoint 2 costumers (UK and EU) when they don't have to? It's just silly blame game here, they EU does not have his shoot in order, to give you an example the Netherlands has 500.000 vaccines in stock, they went to sleep and then one day woke op and decided they needed to distribute a vaccine. The uk has the same issue more than a month ago. I'm very sure that even if the EU would get all of those 80 million vaccines right now they would'nt be able to distribute them so let them focus on getting their systems ready first, instead of starting vaccine wars when the arms are not ready to receive these vaccines.

Brexit isn't relevant to this issue. I found Gove, quoted in the Frankfurter Allgemeine, as wanting to help European friends and partners patronising.

I find Gove quite patronising most times i see him talking, why does the frankfurter zeitung thinks it an good idea to talk to him? i mean the EU makes it and EU vs UK thing but it is really EU vs AZ and according to the contract they published AZ is doing everything the reasonably can to fullfill the contract.

Some of the delay in EU approval was caused by dealing with the concerns of all 27 members. Some of them don't have unlimited money to throw at the problem, and 'rich first' needs to be avoided. An emergency licence might have damaged take up rates.

So the EU with it countless bail-out by proxy schemes has issues with smaller countries not having the money? Just keep the money printer rolling it's not like it has never stopped anyway. (yes yes i know on paper it did and then not but it did if you only read the old name of the scheme and so further and so forth.)

.

 

[slowmotion]

I think that this article from Politico is quite good. It's a level-headed description of the EU/UK vaccine procurement saga.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

 

[mjr]

The national interest is surely to get ourselves vaccinated first and others later.

If not tell me this: how is it better for me that a German or Frenchman I'd vaccinated in March rather than me?

Maybe the virus in that Frenchman will be the one that mutates to resist current vaccines and they themselves are a superspreader due to their job? Or maybe that German is a fiftysomething biochemist who develops the vaccine it won't resist? Too many variables to be sure, but if you want to play the odds, it seems easy to see why vaccinating high-risk foreigners soonest is a better bet than waiting for all low-risk Brits to be done.

The national interest is trouncing this virus, not protecting Brits temporarily and letting it run riot abroad - unless you've got some great product idea that we can export to corpses?

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I think that this article from Politico is quite good. It's a level-headed description of the EU/UK vaccine procurement saga.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

Thanks, interesting.

A couple of things I'd add:

1. Whilst the EU rightly takes a lot of flak, a fragmented approach by all member states may well have been worse still.

2. There's a bit of a naive assumption that throwing more money at it earlier would have made a huge difference. The problems encountered now are at least partly technical, across all the suppliers. No amount of purchasing can magic more supply where it just doesn't exist.

 

[slowmotion]

I was interested in the suggestion that the prices of the vaccines were completely irrelevant compared to the cost of lockdowns, deaths etc. so haggling was a waste of valuable time.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I was interested in the suggestion that the prices of the vaccines were completely irrelevant compared to the cost of lockdowns, deaths etc. so haggling was a waste of valuable time.

Absolutely agree. Particularly the AZ one, which is done at cost for the common good, and is a tiny fraction of the cost of any of the others as a result.

 

[Ajax Bay]

how is it better for me that a German or Frenchman [is] vaccinated in March rather than me?

If two continentals are very much more likely to die than you if they catch the virus (them 80, you 40, say), then if they're vaccinated rather than you, one of their lives will be saved, and you'll be 98% likely OK too. I appreciate that it's "not that simple" but you asked the question.

Oh great. Now it's kicked off over the Irish border too.
Situation desperately requires imaginative and powerful international leadership. Think Gordon Brown in the financial crisis.
EU is failing badly and publicly on this front, and UK just keeping our metaphorical head down. Who will step up?

Still think my suggestion of sending the Irish a UK days worth of Oxford-AZ vaccines (400k, for first dose only, authorised for use by the EMA today) would allow the Irish to vaccinate a twelth of their population (so all over 70s). Would the Irish refuse such an allowance, in the spirit of EU solidarity? I b****y hope not.

I think that this article from Politico is quite good.

I got whined at for offering 'Politico' as a source. I don't know why. Seems a well informed article making some good points based on fact.

 

[midlife]

Been told today that our vaccine hub has been vaccinating too quickly and will slow down. Also that there is a plan to move to AZ vaccine and not Pfizer.

Not sure what will happen to those waiting for the second shot of Pfizer. There is either a pile of Pfizer in our ultra low temp storage or second shot will be AZ. Hmmm m..

 

[lane]

Maybe the virus in that Frenchman will be the one that mutates to resist current vaccines and they themselves are a superspreader due to their job? Or maybe that German is a fiftysomething biochemist who develops the vaccine it won't resist? Too many variables to be sure, but if you want to play the odds, it seems easy to see why vaccinating high-risk foreigners soonest is a better bet than waiting for all low-risk Brits to be done.

The national interest is trouncing this virus, not protecting Brits temporarily and letting it run riot abroad - unless you've got some great product idea that we can export to corpses?

You make some good points. However we are far off vaccinating the vulnerable in the UK and the argument about the who has the vaccine is happening now not in the future when all vulnerable in the UK are vaccinated.

I note the EU are saying Thier priority is the protection and safety of THEIR citizens.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

View: https://twitter.com/redouad/status/1355235965074288643

 

[tom73]

Been told today that our vaccine hub has been vaccinating too quickly and will slow down. Also that there is a plan to move to AZ vaccine and not Pfizer.

Not sure what will happen to those waiting for the second shot of Pfizer. There is either a pile of Pfizer in our ultra low temp storage or second shot will be AZ. Hmmm m..

mmmm do you know what rate you going ? Think the whole thing is starting to run away with itself. Reports all the place that anyone and every is finding ways to get a jab. No one looks to be in charge of this always going to end badly when you have top down stance. Supply is not clear even more centres open I wonder if your hub has had orders cut given the whole NHS region has? Due to being too good at getting the job done. Gp’s around here are getting orders cut at the last minute. Today was the 5th time for Mrs 73 that an order never came.

 

[Buck]

Been told today that our vaccine hub has been vaccinating too quickly and will slow down. Also that there is a plan to move to AZ vaccine and not Pfizer.

Not sure what will happen to those waiting for the second shot of Pfizer. There is either a pile of Pfizer in our ultra low temp storage or second shot will be AZ. Hmmm m..

We’re not able to mix the doses so it‘s either Pfizer/Pfizer or AZ/AZ.

By the end of next week we will see the 12th week (second dose) deliveries all confirmed so that will allow planning and getting patients booked Especially as these first groups were all Pfizer.