Cost of fuel.

[mjr]

1. i didnt say it was practical for no-one, i said for some

Maybe that's what you meant but "come to rural south wales and try" is pretty much suggesting it's impossible in rural areas, which is simply untrue. I don't know about rural South Wales, but there are still even shopper special buses around here, which I think are really crap services because it limits your choice so much, but shopping by bus is blatantly possible and practical for many. It's a lot easier if you still live on a interurban bus route with better-than-hourly service, though.

2. i never said it didnt exist, i said infrequent.......or not regular

It is regular, roughly 2-hourly. You said it wasn't easy or regular, nothing about frequency. I agreed it's not frequent enough to be good transport.

 

[mjr]

the topography of wales, isnt the same as the flat lands of england........

...except the flat bits of Glamorgan coast that I could see from the steep Somerset hillside where I used to live! Both have variations.

there's a saying around here, that if you flattened off wales it would end up bigger than england.

Another example of the local delusions?

were we live in wales, nearest train station is ebbw vale and that only goes to cardiff.....next station is abergavenny circa 8 miles away, can go to various cities like newport/cardiff, can even go to hereford. but would require a car to get to the station.

brother in crickhowell, ZERO trains into crickhowell, closest abergavenny, again would need a car, buses not regular enough to plan a car free route or day out.

Honestly you english cyclists think it simple to do everything by bike, but it aint in the valleys of rural south wales....trust me

It ain't simple... but the way it is isn't the way it has to be. Why does Abergavenny station require cars? Fix it! Why aren't the buses frequent enough to support days out? Fix it! Another way is possible... or do the Welsh have an even worse "can't do" attitude than the English?

 

[SpokeyDokey]

I agree that cars are here to stay and are currently "nigh on essential" but I disagree that they are convenient (unless you close your eyes to the true costs) or that universal transport service is too expensive... but maybe we differ on how friendly "user-friendly" should be.

The current level of car use is not here to stay, though. It's completely out of control and proportion and unsustainable. Cory Doctorow has said "geometry hates cars" and he has a point: there simply isn't enough space in our historic towns, cities and villages for everyone to be dragging around a 4m x2m metal box and definitely not with 12m or more of headway. We shouldn't flatted more history to make space and EVs will not solve this. Making cars slightly smaller will not solve this, not until they become smaller than 2m x1m and use a bit of human power and a 15-20mph top speed to reduce the size of the heavy battery being carried around... and hey presto, we've reinvented e-bikes.

So then we need something for longer and faster journeys, which will be mass transport, trains and medium/long-distance buses, so I disagree about where public transport is needed most: it's to span the sparsely-populated gaps more than move people around densely-populated areas. People can walk and bike most smaller densely-populated areas.

Yep, EVs are losing the plot because they're being sold as glamour goods, not transport. The main thing EVs do is remove the "cost of fuel" discouragement of/limit on car use for those rich enough to afford an EV.


Has anywhere ever legislated to do that?

I can assure you that cars are very convenient for us despite the costs involved.

We can go round and round re buses and public infrastructure but, in most rural areas, it isn't feasible.

Re bikes - not everyone wants to ride a bike. Some cyclists do not seem to understand this. Our village has an older population in the main and tbh even the fit few who do cycle find the 14% final hill a bit of an effort - and that's unencumbered with shopping.

Again, pie in the sky, that we are going to be a nation of happy cyclists. Might work in the flatlands but hilly parts of Wales, Scotland and England - dream on.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

2. seriously........easy to drop on and off bus, again this is rural south wales, not a city like somerset or norfolk. My brother lives in crickhowell, with zero shopping centres, just a small town. nearest shopping town abergavenny,

A 30 min cycle ride or 24 mins on the bus to Abergavenny. It’s also along a pretty flat route, I’ve ridden it many a time. It’s hardly a route crossing the Himalayas is it? By the time you brother finds somewhere to park, then gets back to his car, it has not really saved much time at all, has it?

 

[jowwy]

1....except the flat bits of Glamorgan coast that I could see from the steep Somerset hillside where I used to live! Both have variations.


2. Another example of the local delusions?


It ain't simple... but the way it is isn't the way it has to be. 3. Why does Abergavenny station require cars? Fix it! 4. Why aren't the buses frequent enough to support days out? Fix it! Another way is possible... or 5. do the Welsh have an even worse "can't do" attitude than the English?

1. i would expect most things at sea level to be flat to be honest, especially along a coastline...think your being a bit picky to be honest.

2. i mean i live at 1500ft above sea level, it aint flat around here

3. how else do you get there???

4. Not cost effective for the bus companies to do so, so they no longer run frequent enough uses to the ares needed or in some cases stopped them altogether

5. That would cost a huge influx of money either from a tory government via an increase of the barnet formula or by raising taxes in wales to pay for it, which is not devolved to welsh government ( tax powers are held at westminster)

 

[jowwy]

1. A 30 min cycle ride or 24 mins on the bus to Abergavenny. It’s also along a pretty flat route, I’ve ridden it many a time. It’s hardly a route crossing the Himalayas is it? By the time you brother finds somewhere to park, then gets back to his car, it has not really saved much time at all, has it?

again - your coming at it form a cyclists point of view.....my brother aint and has no wish to be one. its also about 10 mins by car, it hardly takes a further 15 to park etc etc etc

again your being pretty picky and pedantic.....not everyone, wants to live your way of life.

1. ever done that ride with a weekly shop on your bike, after a days work or with maybe 1, 2 or 3 of his kids in tow.......

 

[mjr]

I can assure you that cars are very convenient for us despite the costs involved.

You keep on kidding yourself. Please remember this discussion next time you're looking for some unusual car repair part, or sitting at the mechanics while they do the same at a higher cost to you.

Re bikes - not everyone wants to ride a bike. Some cyclists do not seem to understand this.

I can understand it, like I can understand people wanting to drive instead of using buses, but people need to be honest and say it's really their wants, and not lie that it's somehow impossible, impractical, infeasible, or whatever not to use a car.

 

[nickyboy]

again - your coming at it form a cyclists point of view.....my brother aint and has no wish to be one. its also about 10 mins by car, it hardly takes a further 15 to park etc etc etc

again your being pretty picky and pedantic.....not everyone, wants to live your way of life.

1. ever done that ride with a weekly shop on your bike, after a days work or with maybe 1, 2 or 3 of his kids in tow.......

Remember when I commented that you must be the unluckiest poster on CC given the number of arguments you're unfortunate enough to get into?

 

[jowwy]

Remember when I commented that you must be the unluckiest poster on CC given the number of arguments you're unfortunate enough to get into?

i think this is a discussion/debate....no one is arguing or falling out with each other.

are we not allowed to discuss/debate any longer?? has CC now become North korea or china were no discussion/debate/difference of opinion is allowed to take place.......???

 

[jowwy]

You keep on kidding yourself. Please remember this discussion next time you're looking for some unusual car repair part, or sitting at the mechanics while they do the same at a higher cost to you.


I can understand it, like I can understand people wanting to drive instead of using buses, but people need to be honest and say it's really their wants, and not lie that it's somehow impossible, impractical, infeasible, or whatever not to use a car.

no one is saying that, we just live in the real world......unlike some cyclists in this thread

 

[SpokeyDokey]

You keep on kidding yourself. Please remember this discussion next time you're looking for some unusual car repair part, or sitting at the mechanics while they do the same at a higher cost to you.


I can understand it, like I can understand people wanting to drive instead of using buses, but people need to be honest and say it's really their wants, and not lie that it's somehow impossible, impractical, infeasible, or whatever not to use a car.

What are you, an authority on local terrain right across the UK?

You use some strong words eg 'lie' which is rather rude especially as you are clueless to everyone's personal circumstances.

 

[figbat]

We have made cars essential to our livelihoods and lifestyles because we have built our lifestyles and livelihoods around them. To take away (or significantly reduce) car use means a similar repositioning of our livelihoods and lifestyles to fit. We can't simply take away cars and expect to carry on unaffected. The size of that effect will depend on individual circumstances and the willingness to make a change. It is, in many ways, looking at making a backwards step in social development if we are to restrict our travelling, although one might add it is a benefit to society if it brings an associated improvement to the environment.

 

[jowwy]

ive used my brother as evidence it isnt easy to get around rural south wales, by train, bus or bike.......and i can 100% guarantee unequivocally that there will never be, ever has been or ever will be a bus route or train route to my brothers place of work or any way of getting there by bike.

The end

ps until he moves to australia at the end of the month and im not sure were he will live or work over there

 

[Dogtrousers]

Maybe that's what you meant but "come to rural south wales and try" is pretty much suggesting it's impossible in rural areas, which is simply untrue.

My parents used to live in moderately rural S. Wales. Not the middle of nowhere, mind. There was a bus service between the village and the nearest town (Abergavenny). My mum, who never learned to drive, would walk ~5 miles into town, get her shopping and get the bus back. Now, admittedly, that did rely on a bus service. Most of the neighbours thought she was mad, especially when she steadfastly refused all offers of lifts in all weathers - because she liked the walk.

 

[All uphill]

The situation we are in (car dependent) is imo the result of many factors:

Increasing wealth inequality. Lots of infrequently used campervans round here. Lots of shiny status symbol cars.
Other parts of town have dirty buses and bsos.

Tension between individual freedom ( I want a gas guzzler, and I'm going to have one), vs what is good for our whole society.

Status displays. How better to tell yourself that you are doing well than by buying an expensive car and/or campervan? We've found it instructive to tell our neighbours that we plan to go car free!

It's the social norm to have a car, less so to have good walking shoes and coat!

While transport has these social functions I think it's going to be difficult to find better solutions; the ridiculously fast, big and heavy EVs demonstrate that.